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Thread: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

  1. #121
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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    People who are bringing up the Westboro Baptist Church or the KKK need to stop. That argument is irrelevant. I personally agree that comparisons can be drawn, but the topic of this thread is about whether ISIS is legitimately Islam or not and Obama's statement on that. Deflecting this by saying 'oh well Christians do it too so maybe you should take a look in the mirror' is just a strawman. (Even if it's technically correct and the cons can't handle it)

    As far as the OP goes, Obama got it wrong here IMO. 19 people were beheaded in Saudi Arabia, an established Muslim country, in the last month. The establishment of the caliphate is a central tenet to the Qur'an, and the slaughter of innocents in the qur'an is only forbidden under specific definitions of innocent (e.g. if you're older than 10 and not a muslim you're guilty). ISIS might be hardline islam but it's well within the parameters of the religion as defined in its holy books even if the majority of muslims do not subscribe to it. Obama didn't have much of a choice in this speech, lest he alienate a massive population and enable hatred towards innocent muslims. There needs to be a shift in viewpoint on how we view Islam, and there is a desperate need to recognize it for what it actually is, but this shift must be via a bottom up approach, a cultural shift in view, rather than top-down. It does seem however, that ISIS are doing all they can right now to propagate that viewpoint.
    Last edited by Nilly; 09-11-14 at 03:04 PM.
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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    And how many beheadings and acts of barbaric terrorism has Westboro "indirectly" incited ?
    Quote Originally Posted by longview View Post
    As distasteful as Westboro has been, So far as I know they have not been accredited
    with any beheadings.
    Physics is Phun

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by rcart76 View Post
    Look as a Christian, I am not a big fan of Islam...or Buddhism...or Hinduism. But that is base on their beliefs. But to say that their faith is built on hate is nonsense. Please show me in the Islamic doctrine that they are a religion of hate.

    And lets make a few things clear. religion is a man made entity. through out history, wars and movements have been declared in the name of God. Regardless if it is today or 500 years ago, innocent blood has been spilled in the name of Christianity. But the core principle of Christianity is still intact because of our doctrine (the Bible) represent peace.
    Here's the flaw in your argument, your not Muslim. The people who are, are the ones espousing this sort of brutality and violence. If you want to know what in the Islamic Doctrine supports this stuff, why don't you go ask someone in ISIS. I'm sure they'd be glad to tell you... then cut head off. You know what the real difference between Christianity and Islam is? 500 years ago we decided that waging war in the name of one's God was a stupid reason, and got rid of that notion. Islam sadly, hasn't given up on that idea.

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    When you can prove that large numbers of people of Christian faiths support the actions/efforts of the KKK just as large numbers of people of Islamic and Muslim faiths support the actions/efforts of ISIL/ISIS/IS then you might have a point.
    Many people just want someone to lead them, and there are plenty of wolves in sheep's clothing, in the secular and religious realms willing to accommodate them, ie, Jim Jones.

    There were may false prophets before, during and after the time of Christ. There are many people who carry the label 'Christian' with no clue of what it means. Perhaps they were born into a 'Christian' family, and think that if they go to church every week, they are free to do whatever they want the rest of the time. True Christians are the only ones who Christ will recognize at Judgement Day.

    As Jesus said, 'You Will Know Them by Their Fruits'

    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
    16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
    17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
    18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
    19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
    20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

    Matthew 7:15-20

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I've actually made the point that, according to some claims, only 15-20% of Muslims are radicalized. If that's really the case, then why don't the 80-85% of non-radicalized Muslims stand up and stop the crazies?
    Right, and a lot of us are asking the same questions. I think they are afraid and will wait to see what happens before they commit themselves. They will, as bin Laden said, follow the strong horse. Right now that's not us.
    To some degree, the U.S. has a bit of that responsibility, there are cases where we've actively helped the radicals to stomp on the peaceful demonstrating Muslims, but for the most part, it's because the non-radicals aren't willing to put themselves on the line to fight back. I get it, of course, but I can't help thinking that some part of it is because Islam, as a religion, doesn't allow the non-radicals to take up arms against their radical brethren, the religion gets in the way.
    Yes, that's a very good point. We are being very foolish also in not confronting Islam and not calling out terrorism for what it is. Rather we use euphemisms, like 'workplace violence, or offer excuses such as they were late on their mortgage payments.
    You can see a number of posters who also muddy the waters by claiming Christians did it too. It's remarkable to me how many people lie in order to prevent the truth from being told, and that is the most interesting part, to me, in all of this.
    I don't know, I just know that it's a mess. And Christian theology fell on both sides of the slavery conflict, proving that the Bible is just the Big Book of Multiple Choice. Anyone can get anything they want out of it by cherry picking. The same is likely true of the Qur'an.
    It is a mess but pretending it isn't what it is only makes it messier. What saved Christianity was the New Testement and the teachings of Christ, as well as the Reformation. Islam is still 7th century.

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by iguanaman View Post
    Well it is at least clear that you wish to wage war on the entire religion of 1.6 billion followers. That is just nuts.
    While the problem certainly isn't that large, there are plenty of Muslims who are no fans of the radicalized elements and would gladly go against them on the battlefield or support military action against them, this is just more reason why religion, any and all religion, is bad. It makes people crazy. It tends to make them fanatics, especially when given no good secular alternative. That's the problem in the Middle East, you have people who are supremely convinced that there's an imaginary man in the sky telling them to kill each other and they have no secular culture or government to keep the insanity in check.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    And how many beheadings and acts of barbaric terrorism has Westboro "indirectly" incited ?
    Good question. How many?

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Cephus View Post
    I've actually made the point that, according to some claims, only 15-20% of Muslims are radicalized. If that's really the case, then why don't the 80-85% of non-radicalized Muslims stand up and stop the crazies? To some degree, the U.S. has a bit of that responsibility, there are cases where we've actively helped the radicals to stomp on the peaceful demonstrating Muslims, but for the most part, it's because the non-radicals aren't willing to put themselves on the line to fight back. I get it, of course, but I can't help thinking that some part of it is because Islam, as a religion, doesn't allow the non-radicals to take up arms against their radical brethren, the religion gets in the way.

    I don't know, I just know that it's a mess.

    And Christian theology fell on both sides of the slavery conflict, proving that the Bible is just the Big Book of Multiple Choice. Anyone can get anything they want out of it by cherry picking. The same is likely true of the Qur'an.
    Two things about that number that need to be addressed. First off, even if we were just talking about 20%, that's still 320 million muslims in the world that want to kill us. I don't see how that is good news. But more importantly, that number is somewhat misleading in that it may just shows those who actively participate, but not those who support it. We've seen polls from outlets like Al Jazeera, that have shown the majority of Muslims support violent attacks on civilian targets, and others that show there okay with implementing barbaric Sharia law.

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by NIMBY View Post
    And how many beheadings and acts of barbaric terrorism has Westboro "indirectly" incited ?
    You know, the fact that you have to put in the world "indirectly" just goes to show you've lost this debate. Because with ISIS, we don't have to talk about abstract possibility and indirectness do we?

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Grant View Post
    Revolutionary Muslims, yes. And what is the object of their 'revolution', their end ambition?
    Independence mixed with unity, the same goal as every other revolutionary group ever.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    The organization isn't called RSIL though is it?
    Again, who has the right to frame and claim something as large as a religion shared by a billion humans?
    "The side that stays within its fortifications is beaten." ~Napoleon

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