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Thread: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    That's exactly what he meant, and it is an unfortunate way of saying it. Just like as a small business owner, I knew what he meant when he said that I didn't build it by myself, but I also knew it was going to go over like a lead balloon.
    But he's so eloquent....

    It's amazing that he has such a hard time saying what he really means.
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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    But that is the point that I, and others are trying to make. What makes Islam, TODAY, the most dangerous religion in the world, is the wide spread support for this kind of violence. While the KKK are relegated to holding the occasional rally where more people come to them to shout them down then to support them, you have an army of them right now in the middle east with empirical ambitions. It's not just the numbers that are involved in these violent organizations, but the support these violent regimes have from most Muslims around the world. Hell, I use to at least believe that if you were Muslim in a western country, where you were exposed to modern society and varying cultures, it would be different. But look at kid like that Mccain Macarthur kid who seemed normal enough and then ran off to join ISIS. For something like that to happened, there is something deeply wrong with that religion, or at least so far as it's leaders are portraying it...
    But I would argue that there isn't wide-spread support for it. If there was, then ISIS/ISIL wouldn't have to be attacking these Muslim countries, they wouldn't have to be fighting in Syria and Iraq and Iran and the Muslim parts of India. Those countries would simply turn themselves over to ISIS/ISIL control. There is widespread opposition among the Muslim nations against these Islamic extremist groups. However, what makes this different is that these groups have the ability and freedom to act in that part of the world because they have the money and the freedom to act as an Islamic group. There is no secular influence moderating the religious insanity in the Middle East. This kind of thing could never happen in the west.

    And no, while I would say that there's something wrong with Islam, just like there's something wrong with every religion, the only one you can blame for the actions of that kid is that kid. There was something seriously wrong with that kid's brain wiring.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    When you can prove that large numbers of people of Christian faiths support the actions/efforts of the KKK just as large numbers of people of Islamic and Muslim faiths support the actions/efforts of ISIL/ISIS/IS then you might have a point.
    Hey John

    Not sure how up to date you are on american history but back in the day many "christians" did approve of the actions of the KKK and they even went as far as justifying the actions of the lynching. If they didn't approve don't you think a Christian base country would have label them as terrorist and eradicated the movement.

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Tens of thousands of people joining Westboro wouldn't make it more in keeping with the teachings of Christ. That come from how they act, and how they represent their beliefs. Similarly, tens of thousands of followers wouldn't make ISIS more in keeping with the beliefs of Islam.
    No, it comes from what they believe. Westboros are Christian....just f-ed up Christians.
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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Maybe now we're getting someplace. I don't know the details, but let's just say I agree with you. You're now claiming that the KKK is Christian because at it's height it had strong Christian support for it's bastardized view of Christian teachings. Therefore, why is it not also true that ISIS/ISIL/IS is thoroughly Islamic because it's clearly at it's height today and there is clearly strong Muslim/Islamic support for it both in the ME and in Muslim/Islamic communities throughout the world?

    Clearly, you now agree that the President's statement was idiotic nonsense.
    I'm not claiming that the KKK is Christian. I'm saying that the support in the Christian community for the KKK at the time doesn't make it representative of the Christian religion any more than support in the Islamic communities for ISIS represents the religion of Islam.

    In other words, support doesn't mean you follow the teachings of the religion.


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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    But that doesn't mean they are. If I said they weren't very Christian, would you disagree?
    They ARE very 'Christian'. they are fundamentalist extremists, not unlike the Muslim fundamentalist extremists. The big differences of course being 1-They arent beheading people, 2-They dont have liberals tripping over themselves to distance them from Christianity (in fact, usually it is quite the opposite).

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadaJohn View Post
    Agreed - which is why the President's comments are so absurd. My point was that comparing ISIS/ISIL/IS to the KKK is faulty because the former is very popular in Islamic/Muslim circles whereas the latter is not in Christian circles.
    At one point in time it was. If you go back 150-200 years, that kind of racist mindset was extremely common in Christianity, much of American slavery was built on Christian theology. Today? Not so much. But then again, we've had the moderating influence of secular society in the west that has largely neutered that kind of religious fanaticism, something the Middle East has yet to experience.
    There is nothing demonstrably true that religion can provide the world that cannot be achieved more rationally through entirely secular means.

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by rocket88 View Post
    Tens of thousands of people joining Westboro wouldn't make it more in keeping with the teachings of Christ. That come from how they act, and how they represent their beliefs. Similarly, tens of thousands of followers wouldn't make ISIS more in keeping with the beliefs of Islam.
    People who violate the commandments of Jesus Christ, are not 'Christian':
    30 And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment.
    31 And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
    (Mark 12:30-31)

    But Islam encourages violence:

    "The secular Muslim can change on a dime into a fanatic fundamentalist just as we saw the Sufi Muslims last week join the ISIS.

    When Bob Bergdahl spoke on the Rose Garden alongside Obama starting with the Bismillah (In the Name of Allah) many thought “so what”? We said that the Bismillah is not something they use only when they slaughter a chicken, its also a call to war.

    “This is the reality of Islam, it is a pagan and utterly depraved and sadistic religion. It takes the soul of a man and purges any remnants of human affection from his very being. Look to your own soul, and understand your own obligation to help the Christians,” Shoebat said.

    Christians’ throats slit in pagan slaughterhouse

    Christians’ throats slit in pagan slaughterhouse


    The ISIS Jihadist say:

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by rcart76 View Post
    Hey John

    Not sure how up to date you are on american history but back in the day many "christians" did approve of the actions of the KKK and they even went as far as justifying the actions of the lynching. If they didn't approve don't you think a Christian base country would have label them as terrorist and eradicated the movement.
    Good morning rcart - hope all is well.

    I agree - the point I was trying to make, as I outlined above with Rocket, is that clearly when the KKK was "popular" and supported, it was considered Christian and it took the efforts of Christians to eradicate them from the Christian ranks as time went on but Christians can't deny that the KKK was in a sense a sect of the religion, one that bastardized the teachings, and acted in its name. ISIS/ISIL/IS is no different today and it is at its height and it is supported throughout the Muslim world in numbers greater than we may like to admit or recognize. That makes the President's comments foolish at best.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    Re: Obama: "ISIL Is Not Islamic"

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    That's exactly what he meant, and it is an unfortunate way of saying it. Just like as a small business owner, I knew what he meant when he said that I didn't build it by myself, but I also knew it was going to go over like a lead balloon.
    The 'you didn't build that' went over like a lead balloon, even by those of us who put his remark in its full context and KNEW what he was saying, because what he was actually saying was perhaps a different kind of stupid but it was tunnel vision stupid just the same.

    So likewise, if he says ISIL or ISIS is not Islam because if they were they wouldn't be killing innocent people, and we take it at face value, then there are no Muslim groups out there that are Islam and Islam is actually a figment of somebody's imagination. Hamas is not Islamic. Hezbollah is not Islamic. Al Qaida is not Islamic. The PLO was not Islamic. The Sunnis and Shia are not Islamic. The Wasabi are not Islamic. And so forth. It was a really dumb thing to say.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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