• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

AP Newsbreak: Source says Rice video sent to NFL (in April)

donsutherland1 said:
A lot more work will be required to find out the magnitude of the possible problem and design effective solutions. That the NFL reportedly had the full video months ago--something that still needs to be verified--is troubling. If that was the case, Roger Goodell is not in a position to lead such an inquiry.



The issue of reducing domestic violence and sex crimes is something in which many organizations, not just NOW, have interests. It's still early, but the new information, if it s corroborated is disturbing. If it is, in fact, accurate, it is possible that the NFL's sponsors could threaten to abandon it or begin to do so. Fans, especially female fans, could also do so. Such pressure would make Goodell's position as Commissioner untenable and, if decisive action is not taken afterward, could inflict significant damage on the NFL brand. Such damage would harm the many players, coaches, officials, and others who have nothing to do with domestic abuse and sex crimes. It could also open the door for Congress or the Department of Justice to intervene forcefully e.g., appoint a special prosecutor or other official to temporarily take control of the NFL and clean things up. Already, there is some bipartisan support in Congress for Congress to act, even in the face of the many challenges the nation is currently facing.

IMO, the best approach would be for Goodell to temporarily step aside and allow an independent investigation of the matter. if he's cleared of having failed to act appropriately, he could return. Otherwise he wouldn't. His failure to do so will only invite much more pressure, risk damaging the NFL's brand, and perhaps even trigger government intervention.

Janay Rice is a victim. Victims of abuse handle things differently. Some are eager to participate in seeking punishment of their abuser. Others are scared, often rallying to the abuser, as they figure the costs/risks of turning against the abuser outweigh those of siding with him or ignoring the abuse. Some even hope to transform the abuser. Human behavior is complex and the responses vary. I certainly have no special insight into Janay Rice's position other than the position she has taken. Pushing Janay to cooperate would probably put her in an unfair and bad position.



I'm not aware of any evidence that Ms. Rice is seeking money.
Click to expand...

What does Janay Rice being a victim have to do with Roger Goodell and the NFL?
 
tres borrachos said:
What does Janay Rice being a victim have to do with Roger Goodell and the NFL?
Click to expand...

You had asked:

Why don't they contact Janay Rice and ask her why she married the guy who abused her?
Click to expand...

That's a separate matter from the NFL's possible leadership failure issue. Moreover, for various reasons, bringing her into the matter might be counterproductive.
 
donsutherland1 said:
You had asked:



That's a separate matter from the NFL's possible leadership failure issue. Moreover, for various reasons, bringing her into the matter might be counterproductive.
Click to expand...

And when I said that, I was talking about NOW, not the NFL. The NFL isn't responsible for Janay Rice, or her victimhood, which was in your post. The NFL leadership has no responsibility for her or his behavior in an elevator in Atlantic City, period.

I'm failing to see what responsibility the NFL has here at all. Rice was indicted by a grand jury in NJ, he had a punishment doled out to him, the NFL suspended him for 2 games after he went through the system, and that should have been the end of it for the NFL. Until I see outrage towards the prosecutor in NJ for letting him off with basically no punishment from the posters (and collateral others, such as NOW). who think the NFL and/or Goodell should have to pay some price, the hypocrisy and agenda will be noted.
 
Does the FBI really need to be involved though?
 
tres borrachos said:
And when I said that, I was talking about NOW, not the NFL. The NFL isn't responsible for Janay Rice, or her victimhood, which was in your post. The NFL leadership has no responsibility for her or his behavior in an elevator in Atlantic City, period.
Click to expand...

Apologies, as I misunderstood you.

I'm failing to see what responsibility the NFL has here at all. Rice was indicted by a grand jury in NJ, he had a punishment doled out to him, the NFL suspended him for 2 games after he went through the system, and that should have been the end of it for the NFL. Until I see outrage towards the prosecutor in NJ for letting him off with basically no punishment from the posters (and collateral others, such as NOW). who think the NFL and/or Goodell should have to pay some price, the hypocrisy and agenda will be noted.
Click to expand...

If the AP story is right, the NFL had access to the key piece of evidence that it later used to increase its penalties, but either failed to examine that evidence or did so but ignored it. Given that the NFL's prior narrative of never having had access to the video appears to have been demolished by the AP story and recording that the AP heard, the latter scenario that the NFL ignored the evidence may be the more likely one. That suggests a leadership failure (no due diligence). It also suggests a procedural failure (no adequate process for examining criminal and other disciplinary issues). In other words, Rice went through the proverbial system, but the system failed.

Should Goodell resign or be fired? I think it should depend on the details of what happened. If he had, in fact, ignored the evidence and then spun the story to evade accountability for the minimal punishment, absolutely. If, for some reason, the video never reached him or he was not informed about it, then no. I reserve judgment on that matter, though NOW has made its position clear. NOW's position deals with the bigger potential issue of the incidence of domestic abuse and sex crimes within the NFL community. NOW cited arrests. I do think the investigation needs to look more closely into that matter. If the conviction rate is statistically above the national average, there is, in fact, a problem and it should be dealt with.

I will note that sports leagues have often been extremely slow to react to big problems. MLB all but ignored the steroids issue for years. It wouldn't surprise me if the NFL has all but ignored its own scandal if, in fact, there is the kind of problem NOW has cited.

The NFL has a window of opportunity to fix things. If it fails, there will be fallout from sponsors and possibly even Congress and/or the Department of Justice. To fix things, it will need to conduct a sweeping and robust inquiry, be honest about what it learns regardless of the personalities involved, transparent so that there are no perceptions of anything but a commitment to learn the facts, and decisive in carrying out the necessary fixes. Its request to have former FBI Director Robert Mueller look into the matter related to Rice is a constructive first step.
 
Lutherf said:
In fairness to Goodell and the players, these players are targets for all kinds of frivolous claims. I'm not saying that they're angels but in any case where a player is accused of domestic abuse, rape or assault they shouldn't be booted until the facts become clear. It's just WAY too easy for someone to get "friendly" with a 25 year old mulch-millionaire then abuse that position against them.
Click to expand...


index.jpg

???
 
Kobie said:
I called this.
Click to expand...

It's weird though because this was no secret to anyone. Peter King and others have been reporting for months that the league was shown both videos.

The only reason this blew up is that the public was shown the elevator video and what it showed erased all the false narratives about how she wound up unconscious.

But then, seeing Ray Rice drag his fiance out of the elevator like a sack of meat SHOULD have been enough for the public. In fact it was enough for many who called foul when the league handed out the measly 2 game suspension. Some people just needed to see the asshole, built like Mike Tyson, beating the woman into unconsciousness before reality set in.
 
tres borrachos said:
And when I said that, I was talking about NOW, not the NFL. The NFL isn't responsible for Janay Rice, or her victimhood, which was in your post. The NFL leadership has no responsibility for her or his behavior in an elevator in Atlantic City, period.

I'm failing to see what responsibility the NFL has here at all. Rice was indicted by a grand jury in NJ, he had a punishment doled out to him, the NFL suspended him for 2 games after he went through the system, and that should have been the end of it for the NFL. Until I see outrage towards the prosecutor in NJ for letting him off with basically no punishment from the posters (and collateral others, such as NOW). who think the NFL and/or Goodell should have to pay some price, the hypocrisy and agenda will be noted.
Click to expand...

Exactly, the NJ prosecutor basically gave Rice a slap on the back and sent him on his way. The public and many organizations should be inquisitive enough to question the prosecutor and how he came to his decision.

If another man committed this same crime on video, punching and dragging a woman out of an elevator showing zero remorse, would the NJ prosecutor give him the same deal, I doubt it IMO.
 
donsutherland1 said:
I have no issues with a presumption of innocence coupled with severe penalties in the face of convictions, but the press release notes that Greg Hardy was convicted and is still playing.
Click to expand...

The problem Don is believing a press release from a clearly agenda driven group.

The most accurate description of the Greg Hardy situation is that he is appealing the initial ruling, that was made singularly by a judge, in an attempt to be tried by a jury of his peers. He was sentenced to 18 months probation and 60 days prison sentence, which was suspended.

So in the case of Hardy it's a bit murky. He was found guilty by a judge initially but is currently ongoing in an appeal for a trial by jury.
 
This was the statement of Goodell as it related to "bounty gate" and Saint's GM Mickey Loomis:

13. General Manager Mickey Loomis was not present at meetings of the Saints defense at which bounties were discussed and was not aware of bounties being placed on specific players. Mr. Loomis became aware of the allegations regarding a bounty program no later than February 2010 when he was notified of the investigation into the allegations during a meeting with NFL Executive Vice President-Football Operations Ray Anderson. He was directed to ensure that any such program ceased immediately. By his own admission, Mr. Loomis did not do enough to determine if a pay-for-performance/bounty program existed or to end any such program that did exist.
Click to expand...

Roger Goodell claims he or others in the NFL, to his knowledge, hadn't seen the tape. Mr. Loomis became aware no later than February 2014 that Ray Rice potentially knocked out his girlfriend in a casino elevator, a location most assuredly containing video footage. He is directed to ensure the integrity of the league and the punishment of players based on the personal conduct policy. He is also tasked with the overseeing of the league offices and the employees within it. By his own admission, if this tape was present with a subordinate and it was honestly "not to his knowledge", then he did not do enough to determine what action, and in what situation, Ray Rice took against his girlfriend that day and to base his punishment off those facts.

At the very least, Roger Goodell should be suspended from any league activities for at least two months.
 
So let me get this straight.

The government and FBI are all about investigating the NFL, but no one is interested in why the United States judicial system did absolutely nothing to Ray Rice?
 
Zyphlin said:
The problem Don is believing a press release from a clearly agenda driven group.

The most accurate description of the Greg Hardy situation is that he is appealing the initial ruling, that was made singularly by a judge, in an attempt to be tried by a jury of his peers. He was sentenced to 18 months probation and 60 days prison sentence, which was suspended.

So in the case of Hardy it's a bit murky. He was found guilty by a judge initially but is currently ongoing in an appeal for a trial by jury.
Click to expand...

IMO, those matters need to be looked into before concrete decisions are made. I agree that NOW's press release most definitely is not anything close to the final word. It identifies possible issues, but until those matters are adequately examined, one really can't draw reliable conclusions.
 
Top Cat said:
Lololol well I understand. But he pretty much nailed EVERYONE.
Click to expand...

Olbermann has a horrible history of verbally abusing women. He is the last person that should comment on this.
 
Top Cat said:
Lololol well I understand. But he pretty much nailed EVERYONE.
Click to expand...

I don't do well watching hyper partisans. I include Sean Hannity, Limbaugh and some others in there as well. Olbermann is like a rabid dog. Never even liked him before I knew his hyper partisanship (when he was a sports guy). He dated Laura Ingraham at one point. I can only imagine the pillow talk...I'm actually shocked they didn't smother each other. :mrgreen:
 
donsutherland1 said:
Failed leadership in the context of a "violence against women problem" in the NFL.

NOW issued the following press release:

The NFL has lost its way. It doesn’t have a Ray Rice problem; it has a violence against women problem.
•According to FiveThirtyEight.com, the relative arrest rate of NFL players is fifty-five percent for domestic violence, and thirty-eight percent for sex offenses.
•Days after announcing his new domestic violence policy, Goodell said Ray McDonald of the San Francisco 49ers, who is facing a felony domestic violence charge, could play in the team’s season opener against the Dallas Cowboys.
•Greg Hardy is still playing for the Carolina Panthers, even after being convicted in July of choking his former girlfriend and threatening to kill her.

Goodell’s response to accusations that Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones sexually assaulted a woman has been: radio silence.

The only workable solution is for Roger Goodell to resign, and for his successor to appoint an independent investigator with full authority to gather factual data about domestic violence, dating violence, sexual assault and stalking within the NFL community, and to recommend real and lasting reforms.

The NFL sets the example for college, high school, middle school and even elementary school football programs. And the example it is setting right now is simply unacceptable.

New leadership must come in with a specific charge to transform the culture of violence against women that pervades the NFL.

That’s the only way to restore honor and integrity to the country’s most lucrative and popular pastime.

NOW Calls for Roger Goodell
Click to expand...

With all due respect, Don, I give little energy forthwith to anything NOW says. They are, and have become a political arm of the democratic party. They have developed convenient outrage syndrome, and I cannot support an organization that shows no consistency in matters affecting women.

Tim-
 
polgara said:
Greetings, tres borrachos. :2wave:

I was discussing the Rice thing today with a friend, and I was told that an NFL team can get rid of anyone they like, and the contract that was signed is meaningless. When I questioned how a signed contract isn't a legal document, I was asked why I thought most players demand the bulk of their money up front - they know how the "cookie crumbles." When I argued that it didn't seem fair to the owners, since a player can get hurt or die without playing any games for the money he has already received, I was told that's just how it's done.

I still don't believe it. Could that be true, or was I just being razzed? :shock:
Click to expand...

Good morning Lady P

No contract in the NFL is "guaranteed" - any team can terminate any contract with a player at any time they choose. Some of the money in the contract is guaranteed, even more so these days since a lot of players had been signing large contracts and then after a bad year they'd get cut and get very little out of that big deal - how players often sign for say $50 million over 5 years with $25 million guaranteed and often paid up front.

Now, in the case of Rice as an example, even if he had "guaranteed" money in his contract, if his personal conduct goes against morality provisions in his contract he could also forfeit or be required to pay back some guaranteed money - likewise, if he chose to retire after receiving his upfront guaranteed money and not performing any or a good part of his obligations under the contract, he could also be held liable to return most or a good portion of the upfront payment.

To my knowledge, the NFL is the only league where player contracts aren't really binding contracts in the normal sense of the term.
 
tres borrachos said:
I don't do well watching hyper partisans. I include Sean Hannity, Limbaugh and some others in there as well. Olbermann is like a rabid dog. Never even liked him before I knew his hyper partisanship (when he was a sports guy). He dated Laura Ingraham at one point. I can only imagine the pillow talk...I'm actually shocked they didn't smother each other. :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Quite the couple there. Geez... He's back at ESPN by the way.
 
Man.. the NFL makes FIFA look competent and quick... never thought I would see that.
 
CanadaJohn said:
Good morning Lady P

No contract in the NFL is "guaranteed" - any team can terminate any contract with a player at any time they choose. Some of the money in the contract is guaranteed, even more so these days since a lot of players had been signing large contracts and then after a bad year they'd get cut and get very little out of that big deal - how players often sign for say $50 million over 5 years with $25 million guaranteed and often paid up front.

Now, in the case of Rice as an example, even if he had "guaranteed" money in his contract, if his personal conduct goes against morality provisions in his contract he could also forfeit or be required to pay back some guaranteed money - likewise, if he chose to retire after receiving his upfront guaranteed money and not performing any or a good part of his obligations under the contract, he could also be held liable to return most or a good portion of the upfront payment.

To my knowledge, the NFL is the only league where player contracts aren't really binding contracts in the normal sense of the term.
Click to expand...

Greetings, CJ. :2wave:

Thanks for the info! That's what I was told, so I guess I wasn't being razzed after all. It is still hard to believe, though! :shock:

We had two tornadoes touch down early last evening - one about five minutes from me, and the other about 30 minutes away. It skipped right over my city, thankfully, but there was damage where they hit. My granddaughter was at our Rec Center exercising, and she said everyone was herded into a locker room for a while. Those alarms at the fire stations could raise the dead, and that's good, but Wow they're loud! :eek:
 
polgara said:
Greetings, CJ. :2wave:

Thanks for the info! That's what I was told, so I guess I wasn't being razzed after all. It is still hard to believe, though! :shock:

We had two tornadoes touch down early last evening - one about five minutes from me, and the other about 30 minutes away. It skipped right over my city, thankfully, but there was damage where they hit. My granddaughter was at our Rec Center exercising, and she said everyone was herded into a locker room for a while. Those alarms at the fire stations could raise the dead, and that's good, but Wow they're loud! :eek:
Click to expand...

I'm glad to hear everyone is okay. I almost got up last night and started to build my Ark there was so much rain and it's very windy and much cooler here today, so I guess you've decided to pass your good weather on to me today - thanks so much!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom