More than 100 teens swarm Memphis plaza, 'knocking out' shoppers

Hard Truth said:

I'm not making excuses for anyone. I am responding to your claim that we don't have social classes in the USA. The fact is that the overwhelming majority of people born poor will only rise up a couple of steps on the economic ladder and those born upper class and wealthy will remain upper class and wealthy. A few exceptions don't change that reality. Your parent's income is the best predictor of your future economic success. Fact. It is not class warfare to recognize that we have classes.

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I said we don't have different classes. Different classes of citizens. Economic groups? Yes. But not classes of citizens. You can continue to make excuses and continue to say that poor people will stay poor. You are only preaching the same self fulfilling prophecy that the class warfare and race hatred industry preaches, which actually makes people think that they don't have a chance in this county. Again, I refuse to buy into that. I came from poverty, and have risen up. I came from poor white trash, but rose up. I have a friend that rose from poor black poverty and now owns a company that makes millions of dollars and employs hundreds of people. I refuse to buy into your doom and gloom narrative.

"Feral lions and bears"

I have rarely seen such a desperate attempt to support racism.

Beaudreaux said:

I said we don't have different classes. Different classes of citizens. Economic groups? Yes. But not classes of citizens. You can continue to make excuses and continue to say that poor people will stay poor. You are only preaching the same self fulfilling prophecy that the class warfare and race hatred industry preaches, which actually makes people think that they don't have a chance in this county. Again, I refuse to buy into that. I came from poverty, and have risen up. I came from poor white trash, but rose up. I have a friend that rose from poor black poverty and now owns a company that makes millions of dollars and employs hundreds of people. I refuse to buy into your doom and gloom narrative.

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Many studies have reached similar conclusions as this one:
"....In 1971 a child from the poorest fifth had an 8.4% chance of making it to the top quintile. For a child born in 1986 the odds were 9%. The study confirms previous findings that America’s social mobility is low compared with many European countries. (In Denmark, a poor child has twice as much chance of making it to the top quintile as in America.)...

...the probability of a child born into the poorest fifth of the population in San Jose, California making it to the top is 12.9%, not much lower than in Denmark. In Charlotte, North Carolina it is 4.4%, far lower than anywhere else in the rich world.

This geographic prism also offers some pointers on what influences mobility. The economists found five factors that were correlated with differences in social mobility in different parts of America: residential segregation (whether by income or race); the quality of schooling; family structure (eg, how many children live with only one parent); “social capital” (such as taking part in community groups); and inequality (particularly income gaps among those outside the top 1%). Social mobility is higher in integrated places with good schools, strong families, lots of community spirit and smaller income gaps within the broad middle class. "


Class in America: Mobility, measured | The Economist

Try to prove otherwise with evidence better than a few anecdotes.

Hard Truth said:

I was responding to the statement from Beaudreaux., so ask him.

However, rioting is mostly done by people at the bottom of the socio-economic ladder. AFAIK there was no political intent in this incident, so that is not an excuse for their acts, just a fact.

................................................................

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Apparently you are unaware of the Democratic National Convention ? Or the entire decade of the 1960s into the 1970s..?? Economics is not a basis for rioting ... attitude and expectations carry the day..... economics has minimal influence save for those trying to excuse, blame, or apologize.

I have lived what I speak.

my 2 cents

Thom Paine said:

Apparently you are unaware of the Democratic National Convention ? Or the entire decade of the 1960s into the 1970s..?? Economics is not a basis for rioting ... attitude and expectations carry the day..... economics has minimal influence save for those trying to excuse, blame, or apologize.

I have lived what I speak.

my 2 cents

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I remember the 1960s and most riots were in poor black neighborhoods. Most student/anti-war protests were not riots. The 1968 Chicago riot during the Democratic convention was a police riot.

Hard Truth said:

Many studies have reached similar conclusions as this one:
"....In 1971 a child from the poorest fifth had an 8.4% chance of making it to the top quintile. For a child born in 1986 the odds were 9%. The study confirms previous findings that America’s social mobility is low compared with many European countries. (In Denmark, a poor child has twice as much chance of making it to the top quintile as in America.)...

...the probability of a child born into the poorest fifth of the population in San Jose, California making it to the top is 12.9%, not much lower than in Denmark. In Charlotte, North Carolina it is 4.4%, far lower than anywhere else in the rich world.

This geographic prism also offers some pointers on what influences mobility. The economists found five factors that were correlated with differences in social mobility in different parts of America: residential segregation (whether by income or race); the quality of schooling; family structure (eg, how many children live with only one parent); “social capital” (such as taking part in community groups); and inequality (particularly income gaps among those outside the top 1%). Social mobility is higher in integrated places with good schools, strong families, lots of community spirit and smaller income gaps within the broad middle class. "

Class in America: Mobility, measured | The Economist

Try to prove otherwise with evidence better than a few anecdotes.

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Pshaw...

Almost no working individual reaches the top income quintile at age 26...

Do better.

Any type of socio-economic excuse for such actions is woefully misplaced.

Thom Paine

Beaudreaux said:

I said we don't have different classes. Different classes of citizens. Economic groups? Yes. But not classes of citizens. You can continue to make excuses and continue to say that poor people will stay poor. You are only preaching the same self fulfilling prophecy that the class warfare and race hatred industry preaches, which actually makes people think that they don't have a chance in this county. Again, I refuse to buy into that. I came from poverty, and have risen up. I came from poor white trash, but rose up. I have a friend that rose from poor black poverty and now owns a company that makes millions of dollars and employs hundreds of people. I refuse to buy into your doom and gloom narrative.

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You know what? I did too. I grew up in a 50' mobile home in rural western New York. I rose up to being a national broadcaster, home owner and eventually a businessman employing people in job that would not have been there.

There may be 'classes' as defined by those who need definitions, but there are no class barriers that I can see.

One of my employees was crack baby who overcame the addiction which he inherited. He worked up to supervisor then, with my blessing moved on to a better job in a bigger company. Another was a half black man, born in Canada who was raised in suburban Seattle in fine digs, a speed boat to play with whenever he wanted it, his own basketball court. He was a good worker, but would disappear a lot, not show up for weeks...as he succumbed to his crack habit, which he blamed on growing up black in the United States.

Oh, the first guy was half Cree....

The point is not to in any way suggest one race is better than another, but that in all of them there are people who can and will rise above the circumstances they were born into and those who blame their circumstances on their failures, a trait of the sitting president.

But in the end, isn't the point of America, and Canada to give those seeking to rise above the circumstances they were born into a CHANCE top do so?

"What Pew found was that in the bottom and top quintiles, mobility is "sticky." That is, if you were born into a family in the bottom 20 percent of the population, your chances of moving a rung or two higher was much less than if you were born into the next three quintiles. And if you were born into the top 20 percent, your chances of dropping by a rung or more was much less than if you were born into next lower quintiles."




http://inequalitiesblog.wordpress.com/2011/12/08/straight-talk-on-economic-mobility/


As I said, several studies have reached similar conclusions about the amount of upward mobility in the USA.

Beaudreaux said:

Are you saying that different classes of people exist? Are you saying that in those classes different cultures are accepted that are not in other classes? Or are you talking about income rather than class sine to otherwise would be to turn this from a diversion based on race to a diversion based on class of the perpetrators? I refuse to discuss or agree that different classes exist. We are all equal citizens. We all equal opportunity. However, equal opportunity does not translate to equal outcome.

And as for the kids in the video, I have no idea what income level they come from. What difference does that make? And, why should it? Does a lower or higher income level give a person an entitlement to be violent, or restrict a person from being violent? What does how much money you have, have to do with the way you treat others?

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Questions are not answers to questions.

You said that you wanted to talk about their culture, but when I asked you questions about their culture your response is basically "I don't know"

WIll you ever actually identify this culture you're talking about, or will continue to dodge?

on edit: You also claimed that anyone who allowed this to happen was accepting it so I asked you what you were doing to not allow it. You dodged that question also.

Hard Truth said:

Refusing to see socio-economic class differences means that you refuse to see reality. We are theoretically equal under the law, but even that ideal has not been achieved. A person's socio-economic class determines he quality of the education they receive, even in public schools, and how they will be treated by police and the rest of the justice system. In the private sector there are no legal protections for social classes and class discrimination is standard operating procedure.

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I'm waiting for him to claim that he doesn't see color or race.

Beaudreaux said:

Anyone... ANYONE... that has the mental capacity and physical capacity (not disabled by mental illness or physical deformity - although a lot of them find success as well) that wants to rise up out of poverty can do just that. There are examples every day from every race and every socioeconomic group (notice I said group, not class). So your premise, is just class warfare at its base. Blame someone else for the personal problems of others, hating the rich or for that matter an entire race because they have some perceived advantage is not the answer to anyone's problems, and DAMN sure not an excuse to act like these kids did.

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Aren't you the one who just said " I have no idea what income level they come from" and now you're claiming that these kids did this because of poverty?

Lutherf said:

What does ones economic class have to do with rioting and assaulting people?

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Nothing but Beaudreaux claimed that there was a "culture" that was accepting of this kind of behavior so I asked him to be more specific about this culture. That's when he went off with his inane claim that there are no classes. "We're all equal"

Lutherf said:

What does ones economic class have to do with rioting and assaulting people?

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Crime has many social and economic variables to it.

Hard Truth said:

"What Pew found was that in the bottom and top quintiles, mobility is "sticky." That is, if you were born into a family in the bottom 20 percent of the population, your chances of moving a rung or two higher was much less than if you were born into the next three quintiles. And if you were born into the top 20 percent, your chances of dropping by a rung or more was much less than if you were born into next lower quintiles."


As I said, several studies have reached similar conclusions about the amount of upward mobility in the USA.

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You're assuming that economic status alone is the determining factor in mobility. That's simply not the case. To get the whole picture you need to factor in WHY someone stays at a particular economic level. That reason, especially at the lower levels, can easily be choice. People getting financial assistance based on income are often less likely to try and improve their reportable income. This is especially true if, in addition to the supplement, they are also receiving "off the books" income.

Thom Paine said:

Pshaw...

Almost no working individual reaches the top income quintile at age 26...

Do better.

Any type of socio-economic excuse for such actions is woefully misplaced.

Thom Paine

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The chart shows that 30% of those born to parents in the top quintile reach the top quintile themselves before they are 26 so your statement is clearly wrong.

Deuce said:

Crime has many social and economic variables to it.

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No. Crime is a simple choice one makes. There are just as many wealthy criminals as there are poor ones. The difference tends to be the type of crime that is committed.

sangha said:

Nothing but Beaudreaux claimed that there was a "culture" that was accepting of this kind of behavior so I asked him to be more specific about this culture. That's when he went off with his inane claim that there are no classes. "We're all equal"

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I don't think that there's any question but that petty crime and physical assaults are more accepted in certain subcultures. You can see the evidence of it in the video that prompted this thread. The woman filming was laughing and joking until the assault happened. That's a pretty clear indication that she was willing to accept a certain level of inappropriate (if not outright unlawful) behavior.

I grew up in poverty, not just poor. I am talking in poverty. I have worked ever since I was 15, busted my ass to get where I am today, and my wife and I would be demographically upper middle class. That all said, I am a pretty smart guy and that helps a lot when climbing the income demographic ladder. I doubt I would have made it very far in IT had I not had a natural aptitude for it. Moreover, while I came from poverty, I also realize that its not easy to do so. Its much harder to go from poverty to the middle class than it is to grow up middle class and enter into it as an adult yourself. As the saying goes, a lot of guys are born on 3rd base and think they hit a triple.

That all said, the people of Memphis and other failing cities cannot simply blame their problems with violence, poor schools, and joblessness on racism or the legacy of Jim Crow. There are economic problems in these places and poor schools there because they are violent places. They are violent places for a lot of reasons, but one of the biggest ones is terrible parenting. Not just any kids will go to a grocery store parking lot and start attacking people, it takes a lifetime of ****ty parenting to get to that point. Moreover, this crap that community "leaders" always spew after something like this happens about "these kids don't have anything to do, we have to invest in community centers and so on to keep this from happening...." If kids not having anything to do resulted in violent teens, then western Kansas and the rest of the Great Plains would be the most violent place on the planet. I assure you there is a lot more for kids to do in Memphis than there is in South Dakota or Goodland, KS. The fact is as long as you have this kind of violence and widespread crime in Memphis, then the town will continue to go down hill.

Lutherf said:

I don't think that there's any question but that petty crime and physical assaults are more accepted in certain subcultures. You can see the evidence of it in the video that prompted this thread. The woman filming was laughing and joking until the assault happened. That's a pretty clear indication that she was willing to accept a certain level of inappropriate (if not outright unlawful) behavior.

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I agree, but it seems as if Beaudreux doesn't want to identify which culture he's talking about. Instead, he wants to spread blame to anyone and everyone who disagrees with his pov. He's gone so far as to blame Affirmative Action, as if these kids were somehow beneficiaries of AA (I really doubt they were college kids or employed)

He's also blamed anyone who has "allowed" this to happen. I'm not even sure what that means. Do people "allow" rapes? Murders?

Hard Truth said:

Many studies have reached similar conclusions as this one:
"....In 1971 a child from the poorest fifth had an 8.4% chance of making it to the top quintile. For a child born in 1986 the odds were 9%. The study confirms previous findings that America’s social mobility is low compared with many European countries. (In Denmark, a poor child has twice as much chance of making it to the top quintile as in America.)...

...the probability of a child born into the poorest fifth of the population in San Jose, California making it to the top is 12.9%, not much lower than in Denmark. In Charlotte, North Carolina it is 4.4%, far lower than anywhere else in the rich world.

This geographic prism also offers some pointers on what influences mobility. The economists found five factors that were correlated with differences in social mobility in different parts of America: residential segregation (whether by income or race); the quality of schooling; family structure (eg, how many children live with only one parent); “social capital” (such as taking part in community groups); and inequality (particularly income gaps among those outside the top 1%). Social mobility is higher in integrated places with good schools, strong families, lots of community spirit and smaller income gaps within the broad middle class. "

Class in America: Mobility, measured | The Economist

Try to prove otherwise with evidence better than a few anecdotes.

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This disproves what I said... How???

People that makes statements like yours, are the primary reason that those kids never get out of poverty.

If a kid is continually told that he/she has no chance, that the system is rigged against them, that other races are keeping them down, then that kid begins to believe that there is no hope, and without hope, they give up, and when they give up... they fulfilled the prophecy that you have set for them.

Again, I don't buy into that. The cycle can be broken. It has been broken by many of all races and ethnicities. Preaching what you are condoning is a major part of why more do not. Stop the cycle - don't perpetuate it.

Fearandloathing said:

You know what? I did too. I grew up in a 50' mobile home in rural western New York. I rose up to being a national broadcaster, home owner and eventually a businessman employing people in job that would not have been there.

There may be 'classes' as defined by those who need definitions, but there are no class barriers that I can see.

One of my employees was crack baby who overcame the addiction which he inherited. He worked up to supervisor then, with my blessing moved on to a better job in a bigger company. Another was a half black man, born in Canada who was raised in suburban Seattle in fine digs, a speed boat to play with whenever he wanted it, his own basketball court. He was a good worker, but would disappear a lot, not show up for weeks...as he succumbed to his crack habit, which he blamed on growing up black in the United States.

Oh, the first guy was half Cree....

The point is not to in any way suggest one race is better than another, but that in all of them there are people who can and will rise above the circumstances they were born into and those who blame their circumstances on their failures, a trait of the sitting president.

But in the end, isn't the point of America, and Canada to give those seeking to rise above the circumstances they were born into a CHANCE top do so?

Click to expand...

Absolutely, and dead on point with what I trying to say in this thread. But, others want to say that there's no chance. That they cannot succeed. that they are all doomed to the cycle of poverty and despair. They even post charts and graphs and give links to studies to try to prove their point. It's truly sad.

It is well known that blacks, in general, have lower IQs than Whites and Asians.......yet they have been told for a generation that they are just as smart and can perform on the same level........when their real world experiences tell them the opposite. This leads to huge cognitive dissonance........which causes them to lash out against Whites who they perceive, deep down, to be smarter and better looking and more successful

sangha said:

Questions are not answers to questions.

You said that you wanted to talk about their culture, but when I asked you questions about their culture your response is basically "I don't know"

WIll you ever actually identify this culture you're talking about, or will continue to dodge?

on edit: You also claimed that anyone who allowed this to happen was accepting it so I asked you what you were doing to not allow it. You dodged that question also.

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I answered your question, just not in a way that allowed you proceed in your normal manner.

Lovebug said:

The parents? Its on them too.

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The parents should be held responsible if they were in fact negligible. Demanding that they make a public statement, however, is frankly an unreasonable request.

sangha said:

Aren't you the one who just said " I have no idea what income level they come from" and now you're claiming that these kids did this because of poverty?

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