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Thread: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

  1. #321
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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Hail to the Redskins!
    Hail Victory!
    Braves on the Warpath!
    Fight for old D.C.!
    Run or pass and score -- we want a lot more!
    Beat 'em, Swamp 'em,
    Touchdown! -- Let the points soar!
    Fight on, fight on 'Til you have won
    Sons of Wash-ing-ton. Rah!, Rah!, Rah! Hail to the Redskins!
    Hail Victory!
    Braves on the Warpath!
    Fight for old D.C.!
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Hail to the Redskins!
    Hail Victory!
    Braves on the Warpath!
    Fight for old D.C.!
    Run or pass and score -- we want a lot more!
    Beat 'em, Swamp 'em,
    Touchdown! -- Let the points soar!
    Fight on, fight on 'Til you have won
    Sons of Wash-ing-ton. Rah!, Rah!, Rah! Hail to the Redskins!
    Hail Victory!
    Braves on the Warpath!
    Fight for old D.C.!

    Totally irrelevant.

  3. #323
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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Totally irrelevant.
    But beautiful.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    But beautiful.
    More like stupid, trivial and waste of space.

  5. #325
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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    More like stupid, trivial and waste of space.
    Let the record show that I exercised a gentleman's restraint when presented with such a wonderful straight line.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Let the record show that I exercised a gentleman's restraint when presented with such a wonderful straight line.
    Let the record show you trying to hijack the thread.

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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    First, let me be blunt and up front with you so you can possibly save your time (assuming you bother to read it). I will not continue wasn't my time past this post as you've obviously demonstrated you have no desire to engage in any kind of legitimate and honest debate as you have not bothered to actually bother to read what I write or the sources I linked to, as I'm going to CLEARLY show. I'm not going to waste any further breath after this post with a biased and prejudiced agenda driven hack on this issue who doesn't even take the time to even bother to read what the other side is ACTUALLY SAYING and instead responds by attacking strawmen and stereotypes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    It's questionable whether the Indians actually called themselves redskins or were simply repeating what the English called them. Does the Redskins website mention that the name took on a derogatory racist overtone in the mid to late 1800s?
    Really? You base this statement on what FACT Moot? Do you have ANY FACTUAL FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS of "The English" calling them "Redskins"? If so, provide it.

    If you had bothered to read my source, which was not the "Redskins Facts" website but rather a Washington Post article detailing the research of the Smithsonian Institute's senior linguist. Had you actually bothered to be honest and objective and actually read what I took the time to link you would've seen that instead of insultingly making assumptions based on your prejudices.

    So nice going with your strawman, but I won't my time chasing your pathetic attempts to divert from what I by erecting false premises. A simple check of my history on this issue shows that I've never suggested that the term CAN'T be used as a slur or hasn't been used as a slur before. You can look HERE or HERE or HERE or HERE or HERE for proof of that. I didn't bring it up in this thread because it wasn't relevant to what I was stating. Whether or not it later was used in some fashion as a slur doesn't have ANYTHING TO DO with it's origins.

    Origins that I've provided FACTUAL EVIDENCE to back up and you've provided ZERO countering other than an ignorant statement that Native Americans only refer to themselves by their tribal designation. Attempting to suggest I'm wrong that its original use was by native americans in a non-slurring way by pointing out that in the future it turned into a slur is an illogical mess of an argument.

    I cited one example because that's all Snyder cited and you didn't seem to have a problem swallowing that as representing all Indians.
    What the **** are you even talking about?

    Please provide me what evidence you have to suggest ANYTHING that I've said is based off what Snyder stated, because not a single source of mine to this point has been Dan Snyder or anything supplied by him. So what the **** are you talking about here other than another non-sequitur in an attempt to distract from the fact your arguments have been riddled with logical inconsistencies, abject falsehoods, and anecdotal evidenced attempted to be presented as fact? You once again highlight that you've not bothered to actually check the sources I've provided.

    I cite a scientifically conducted poll for my purposes. I site Robert Green, Chief of the Patawomek Tribe, who doesn't care and claims that 98% of his tribe are fans and don't care that they're called redskins. Or Kevin Brown, Chief of the Pamunkey, who claims similar. Or Anne Richardson, chief of the Rappahanock Tribe, who has no issue with it. (1). I site Mark Onewolf, who helps run a Facebook page dedicated to native american redskin fans (2). Or this twitter user whose 100% indian member of the Tsimshian Nation (3). I site Chris Cooley and his research from traveling to various tribes and interviewing members, much of which he did separate from any Redskin sanctioned activities, and his testimony that the majority response ranged from non-caring to support for the name (4).

    Unlike you, I do not point to these things to claim that almost all native americans MUST think this way, like you attempted to do by suggesting that almost all native americans who support the name are phony. I point them out simply to counter the flawed, unbacked up, illogical assertion you put forward.

    "This idea that the fight against the mascotting...
    Blah blah blah. Another strawman and diversionary tactic of you because you don't have any desire for ACTUAL discussion and simply wish to propagandize, which is why you can't actually back up anything you say and simply attempt to side step all the counters I made to your weak points.

    If I was stating that this was a new issue your pathetic strawman may have a point, but that's not been my claim. There's no reason to link this in response to my comment OTHER than to distract.

    The Bureau of the Census counts anyone an Indian who declares himself or herself to be an Indian. As of 2010, the Census Bureau estimates there were more than 2.9 million American Indians and Alaska Natives living in the United States.
    AGAIN you prove that you didn't bother to actually look at my source and are ignorantly and laughably debating based off stereotypes and strawmen you're creating.

    Link #3 from my article WAS THE BUREAU OF THE CENSUS. Notice the address written out: https://www.census.gov/newsroom/releases/archives/facts_for_features_special_editions/cb11-ff22.html

    Notice at the top where it says "United States Bureau of the Census"

    And notice where it says this:

    Population
    5.2 million

    As of the 2010 Census, the nation's population of American Indians and Alaska Natives, including those of more than one race. They made up 1.7 percent of the total population. Of this total, 2.9 million were American Indian and Alaska Native only, and 2.3 million were American Indian and Alaska Native in combination with one or more other races."
    As I said, the Census recognizes that 5.2 million people in this nation are Native Americans.

    I actually link THE CENSUS BUREAU and you link "Fact Monster", and somehow you think your link was the accurate depiction of what the Census Bureau claims is the population of Native Americans in this country. Wonders never cease.

    How dare I? How dare you resort to such fallacious tactics.
    Yes, absolutely how dare you. You have no right, nor have you put forward ANY legitimate argument, as to why you or anyone else has the authority to declare someone who is ethnically native american that they're not a "real indian" because they're not full blooded.

    Tribal membership is NOT REQUIRED TO IDENTIFY ONESELF AS NATIVE AMERICAN. Simply because you and some activists dislike that fact doesn't make it so.

  8. #328
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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    To be eligible for Bureau of Indian Affairs services
    Interesting fact, An AGENCY of the governments requirements is not the same as claiming a BROAD stance that the government requires those things it lists.

    The Census Bureau is a part of the US Federal Government, and the Census Bureau identifies individuals as Native American if they claim to be racially native american in full or in part.

    And if you have BOTHERED TO READ WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID I acknowledged that portions of the Federal Government require stricter requirements, but that it's dishonest and INCORRECT to suggest that those stricter requirements are the government wide requirements.

    I asked you first. How did Annenberg conduct it's poll?
    The difference of course being the poll I site is publicly available and anyone could go find the information you're ignorantly asking for, where as your poll is not publicly available and is completely lacking in a dearth of information, but sure...i'll play your ridiculous game. See, because the poll I site is an actual scientifically conducted poll following polling standards and practices, it has a Survey Methodology clearly outlined that I can easily link to:

    The 2004 National Annenberg Election Survey is based on telephone interviews which began October 7,
    2003 and will continue past Election Day.

    The sample of telephone exchanges called was randomly selected by a computer from a complete list of
    thousands of active residential exchanges across the country. Within each exchange, random digits were
    added to form a complete telephone number, thus permitting access to both listed and unlisted numbers.
    Within each household, one adult was designated by a random procedure to be the respondent for the
    survey. The interviewing is conducted by Schulman, Ronca, Bucuvalas, Inc.

    This report deals with interviewing conducted from Oct. 7, 2003, through September 20, 2004. In that
    period 65,047 adults were interviewed, of whom 768 identified themselves as Indians or Native Americans.
    In theory, in 19 cases out of 20 the results for these interviews will differ by no more than two percentage
    points, up or down, from what would have been obtained by interviewing all American adults. For smaller
    subgroups, the margin of sampling error would be higher. (5)
    The initial question was how they self identify, the same style of method the Federal Government uses for the U.S. Census to determine whether or not an individual is Native American. Unless these respondents were psychic they would have no knowledge that this survey would be inquiring about Football related things, nor does a question of "What race do you identify as" clearly indicate or give any hint that the questions are going to be geared to any specific race. Indeed, this is normal for pretty much every poll as indicated by Annenberg's Political Director at the time; self identification of demographics is the standard for polling practices (6)

    The "method of verification" is the same that the United States uses to get official number for the amount of Native Americans within the United States, IE self identification.

    UNLIKE the information you've provided, this poll followed industry standard and accepted polling procedures of random sampling as opposed to an inherently bias inducing method that you have seemingly claimed your survey followed.

    So now that I've answered your question how about you go ahead and answer mine. I answered how Annenberg selected their people (random generation from a computer), how did yours get it. I answered how Annenberg declared someone a native american or not (The same as the census), what about yours? I can tell you the margin of error for Annenberg's poll (+-2), what's yours?

    I'm sure you just won't give me the answers on that though, if you even bother to read what I wrote. I'm sure you'll ignore it, just like you ignored my showing in detail how your claim that only 10% of native americans on reservations have phones was utter and complete bull**** and fabrication. I'm sure you'll erect yet another strawman rather than deal with the fact you've not been able to provide any factual evidence of the term not originating by native americans, that most native americans who aren't bothered by the name are not "read indians", or how an organization who claims the membership of only 1/3rd of all tribes somehow speaks on behalf of all native americans.

    See, I continually have put forward actual arguments sourced with legitimate and verifiable facts. Mean while you put forward:

    - Abject lies (only 10% have phones, "most" indians live on reservations or indian land)

    - Unsourced ignorant falsehoods (majority against the name, most that don't have a problem aren't "real" indians, that native americans didn't originate the term)

    - Pathetic strawmen that have nothing to do with things I've stated (claiming I'm dismissing the "opinion" of a native american, asking how many indians Dan Snyder represent, talking about employment with the BIA, complaints from someone that some people suggest this is "new")

    You're either the worst propagandist or more realistically someone whose been hoodwinked by propagandists as evidenced by your utter and complete inability to actually back up or adequately argue any of your ridiculous claims. LAUGHABLE that you attempt to fall back on calls of logical fallacies when your arguments have been RIDDLED with them every step of the way as you've incessantly and continually straw manned through this entire discussion.

    If anyone else would like to have a discussion where people actually bother to take the time to read what others are saying, please feel free to respond. But I don't feel like wasting two hours researching and making sure I source my post only for that to be completely ignored and responded to with strawmen.

    Again, the evidence that it's clear Moot didn't bother to read my posts...

    - Tries to tell me what the Census Bureau says the population of Native Americans is by linking to a non-census bureau site, despite my post specifically linking the census bureau as the source of my information

    - Seems to claim that I thought Snyder's "fake indian" was representative of all native americans thoughts on the issue, despite acknowledging the individual was phony and acknowledging throughout my post that there are offended native americans.

    - Suggests the information in my first link was from the "Redskins Truth" site when in reality the link was to a Washington Post article from a year+ prior to the Redskins Fact site even being made

    - My post clearly states that "Certain instances within the federal government have a higher standard than that [self identification]", and yet Moot then goes forward to post an example of the federal government having a higher standard in a CERTAIN INSTANCE as if that somehow countered my point.

  9. #329
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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Let the record show you trying to hijack the thread.
    Really? How is the Redskins' fight song hijacking on a thread about the Redskins' name?
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

  10. #330
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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    First, let me be blunt and up front with you so you can possibly save your time (assuming you bother to read it). I will not continue wasn't my time past this post as you've obviously demonstrated you have no desire to engage in any kind of legitimate and honest debate as you have not bothered to actually bother to read what I write or the sources I linked to, as I'm going to CLEARLY show. I'm not going to waste any further breath after this post with a biased and prejudiced agenda driven hack on this issue who doesn't even take the time to even bother to read what the other side is ACTUALLY SAYING and instead responds by attacking strawmen and stereotypes.
    That's not true and I don't know what I did to deserve that but since that's the way you feel I don't see the need to continue our discussion any further. You assumed exactly right, I'm not going to read the rest of your post so thanks for poisoning the well up front and saving me the trouble.
    Last edited by Moot; 09-05-14 at 10:11 PM.

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