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Thread: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jetboogieman View Post
    As I said in the other thread we wouldn't keep the "Washington Niggers".
    As discussed in the other thread, it's not comparable unless one is suggesting every word that has or can be used as a slur is exactly equal. The creation of the word, it's most common usage in the modern day, it's embracing by the community at large in community establishments, etc creates an entirely different context than such a team name would be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    The only people who have a right to be offended about the name 'redskins' are Indians. I haven't seen or heard a good reason yet why they shouldn't be.
    And there's a significant question as to whether or not they native american population are legitimately "offended" by the name, a terminology originally created by Native Americans as a reference to themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    The real irony is that most of the Indians who claim they don't have a problem with the name aren't even real Indians. lol
    This is pure hyperbole on your part. You've repeated put forward one example and ignorantly attempt to claim that this is somehow "proof" of your bogus claim.


    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Indians will always be a minority but the vast majority of them appear to be against the name.
    Again, highly questionable. The only PUBLISHED scientifically conducted poll on this matter found that 91% of native americans didn't feel the name needed to be changed.

    Going off media presentation of events doesn't provide an accurate assessment as there's been no effort what so ever by the media to report on this fairly. For example, NBC is one of the primary media outlets fighting against the name but never bothers to disclosure it's business relationship with one of the primary tribes complaining about the name as it does so. ESPN routinely runs 3 decade old film split screen with anyone talking about the name or invites a blogger to debate a professor on the issue. The primary news reporter in the DC area that pushes the name issue blocks and refuses to listen to any native american who disagrees with him that they should be offended by the name, calling them "uncle tomahawks". The reality is that the public has no honest presentation being provided of where native americans stand on this; one side's voice is repeatedly broadcast over national airwaves and others are not just ignored but openly mocked.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    But were they 'real' Indians being polled or did they just say they were?
    Here's your ignorant and prejudicial "'real' Indians" line. Legally as it relates to this country one need not live on a reservation or be a registered member of a tribe to be considered "native american", contrary to the desires of certian activists who seek to DEEM themselves the arbiter's of what makes a "real indian". The US census's numbers regarding native americans is based off of self identification, and it's those population numbers that are routinely pointed to in terms of the total population of native americans...and yet when information doesn't come out like they like they decide to erroniously recast the population base.

    The further problem is that the poll you quote does not exist to the public from what I can find, outside of a press release which is NOT THE POLL. No information can be found in terms of it's methods, it's margin of error, or the criteria in which the person decided to claim they "authenticate" native americans. If his "authentication" is in line with what some activists have used as the means of criticising the professionally done annenburg poll, then it means they have to live on a reservation or be an official member of a tribe; IE not what is legally required in ANY fashion to be identified as native american. This type of prejudicial polling is akin to trying to do a poll of black people and claiming it's only caring about "authentic" black people so would only take answers from individuals with a zip code that falls within the inner city. Or a poll claiming it's only focusing on "Authentic" Irish-Americans by those who currently, or are one generation removed, from living in New England.

    There is no evidence what so ever that the Annenberg poll is flawed or that there is a significant amount of people who are not legally identified as native americans who participated in the pool beyond the margin of error. Simply waving a wand and claiming it is so doesn't make it so. Simply because some activists have disdain and wish to make non-reservation native americans into second class citizens who are stripped of their heritage doesn't make it so.

    As to your comment about the National Congress of American Indians, not they don't represent "They" as in native americans as a whole. They make up only 1/3rd of the tribes in the United States. Your list that you put up that included tribes were also all tribes that are PART of the NCAI, making for a nice visual for propoganda purposes but in reality is just redundant. Indeed, your list you posted doesn't include any tribes out of the other 2/3rds of them not represented by the NCAI.

    Additionally, as it relates to the NCAI, understand that it's a group and representative body. Attempting to proclaim the views of the Congress as inherently representative of every native american within that third of native american tribes is about as legitimate as attempting to proclaim that the resolutions passed by the United States Congress is inherently representative of every american within their constituency.

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You can't be serious. Have you seen the mascot or heard where the logo comes from?
    The Washington Redskins do not have an official mascot. The logo came from Walter "Blackie" Wetzel, a former chairman of the Blackfeet Nation and President of the National Congress of American Indians. The logo was modeled after the Buffalo Head Nickel.

    I understand none of that will change your views, but since you’re seemingly operating off faulty information to form your views I figured I’d at least help get you back on point.

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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    I understand none of that will change your views, but since you’re seemingly operating off faulty information to form your views I figured I’d at least help get you back on point.
    You think the name Redskins exists in a void, without meaning or implications?

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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by ecofarm View Post
    You think the name Redskins exists in a void, without meaning or implications?
    I really don't believe when the team was named Redskins there was any intent to insult Indians and I truly believe most Indians felt that way and still feel that way to..........The left is going overboard in their PC these days.
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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Zyphlin View Post
    And there's a significant question as to whether or not they native american population are legitimately "offended" by the name, a terminology originally created by Native Americans as a reference to themselves.
    Baloney. Indians refer to themselves by their tribal names, Cree, Lakota, Cherokee, etc.


    This is pure hyperbole on your part. You've repeated put forward one example and ignorantly attempt to claim that this is somehow "proof" of your bogus claim.
    The Indian mentioned in the article said white sports fans would dismiss his opinion and now here you are, dismissing his opinion.

    Again, highly questionable. The only PUBLISHED scientifically conducted poll on this matter found that 91% of native americans didn't feel the name needed to be changed. Going off media presentation of events doesn't provide an accurate assessment as there's been no effort what so ever by the media to report on this fairly. For example, NBC is one of the primary media outlets fighting against the name but never bothers to disclosure it's business relationship with one of the primary tribes complaining about the name as it does so. ESPN routinely runs 3 decade old film split screen with anyone talking about the name or invites a blogger to debate a professor on the issue. The primary news reporter in the DC area that pushes the name issue blocks and refuses to listen to any native american who disagrees with him that they should be offended by the name, calling them "uncle tomahawks". The reality is that the public has no honest presentation being provided of where native americans stand on this; one side's voice is repeatedly broadcast over national airwaves and others are not just ignored but openly mocked.
    Is it possible that Indians are actually uniting to lobby the government and the media to take them seriously?

    Change the Mascot and Diverse Coalition of More Than 100 Groups Urge Radio and T.V. Broadcasters to Cease Use of Washington Team’s Disparaging R-word Name on Airwaves....
    http://www.changethemascot.org/wp-co...asters-NEW.pdf

    The white supremacist, George Preston Marshall must be spinning in his grave.


    Here's your ignorant and prejudicial "'real' Indians" line. Legally as it relates to this country one need not live on a reservation or be a registered member of a tribe to be considered "native american", contrary to the desires of certian activists who seek to DEEM themselves the arbiter's of what makes a "real indian". The US census's numbers regarding native americans is based off of self identification, and it's those population numbers that are routinely pointed to in terms of the total population of native americans...and yet when information doesn't come out like they like they decide to erroniously recast the population base.
    The 2010 census was the first census to separately count American Indians/Alaskan Natives "alone" and Indians of mixed race. There were 5.2 million who self identified as Indian. But only 2.9 million people self identified as AI/AN 'alone' on the census........

    http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/b...c2010br-10.pdf

    So which census figure is 'routinely' pointed to in terms of the native American population? The Federal Government only seems to recognize Indians who self identify as AI/AN 'alone' and are an actual member of a tribe.


    The further problem is that the poll you quote does not exist to the public from what I can find, outside of a press release which is NOT THE POLL. No information can be found in terms of it's methods, it's margin of error, or the criteria in which the person decided to claim they "authenticate" native americans. If his "authentication" is in line with what some activists have used as the means of criticising the professionally done annenburg poll, then it means they have to live on a reservation or be an official member of a tribe; IE not what is legally required in ANY fashion to be identified as native american. This type of prejudicial polling is akin to trying to do a poll of black people and claiming it's only caring about "authentic" black people so would only take answers from individuals with a zip code that falls within the inner city. Or a poll claiming it's only focusing on "Authentic" Irish-Americans by those who currently, or are one generation removed, from living in New England.
    The press release I saw showed how they conducted the survey, their method and the questions they asked. But because only about 10% of the Indian population have telephones, the data collectors went to pow wows, Indian reservations and Indian college campuses....

    http://cips.csusb.edu/docs/PressRelease.pdf


    FCC Tribal Initiatives

    If only 10% of all Indians have a telephone then how did Annenberg conduct it's survey on Indians?


    There is no evidence what so ever that the Annenberg poll is flawed or that there is a significant amount of people who are not legally identified as native americans who participated in the pool beyond the margin of error. Simply waving a wand and claiming it is so doesn't make it so. Simply because some activists have disdain and wish to make non-reservation native americans into second class citizens who are stripped of their heritage doesn't make it so.
    The Annenberg Election poll was conducted randomly during a highly political election season and didn't verify the authenticity of the respondents claiming to be Indians. According to the census most Indians live on reservations or in rural Indian designated territory and don't have phones. So how did Annenberg make sure the respondents were really Indians and not just sports fans?


    As to your comment about the National Congress of American Indians, not they don't represent "They" as in native americans as a whole. They make up only 1/3rd of the tribes in the United States. Your list that you put up that included tribes were also all tribes that are PART of the NCAI, making for a nice visual for propoganda purposes but in reality is just redundant. Indeed, your list you posted doesn't include any tribes out of the other 2/3rds of them not represented by the NCAI.
    Indeed, and how many Indians does the R-word owner, Snyder represent?


    Additionally, as it relates to the NCAI, understand that it's a group and representative body. Attempting to proclaim the views of the Congress as inherently representative of every native american within that third of native american tribes is about as legitimate as attempting to proclaim that the resolutions passed by the United States Congress is inherently representative of every american within their constituency.
    Really, so according to you Indians aren't allowed to organize or speak for other Indians unless they can prove they represent ALL Indians? Is that right? Or perhaps you would prefer all Indians were "invisible" especially the ones that are offended, so you wouldn't have to hear what they have to say at all?

    The Washington Redskins do not have an official mascot. The logo came from Walter "Blackie" Wetzel, a former chairman of the Blackfeet Nation and President of the National Congress of American Indians. The logo was modeled after the Buffalo Head Nickel.

    I understand none of that will change your views, but since you’re seemingly operating off faulty information to form your views I figured I’d at least help get you back on point.
    It's about the R-word, silly. It's defined as a racial slur in the dictionary and 67% of Native Americans agree. None of the other races are demagogued in such a racist and demeaning manner in sports, so why just Indians?

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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    And are they valid representatives for all Indians?
    That's a loaded question, jack.

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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    That's a loaded question, jack.
    Indeed. I'd like to see Gallup or some other professional outfit take on this question.
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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    Indeed. I'd like to see Gallup or some other professional outfit take on this question.
    Gallup doesn't claim their polls represent all of everyone either, Jack.

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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Gallup doesn't claim their polls represent all of everyone either, Jack.
    No, but it would be a credible result.
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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Hays View Post
    No, but it would be a credible result.
    Not necessarily. A lot of credible polls were extremely wrong about the 2012 election and Gallup was the worst with the highest bias and error rate of them all.....

    http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...ype=blogs&_r=0

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    Re: Poll: 71 percent say keep Redskin

    Quote Originally Posted by Moot View Post
    Not necessarily. A lot of credible polls were extremely wrong about the 2012 election and Gallup was the worst with the highest bias and error rate of them all.....

    http://fivethirtyeight.blogs.nytimes...ype=blogs&_r=0
    Then pick any polling outfit you like. Gallup has many decades of effective work. I don't think one bad outing cancels that, but the point is not about them. The point is to get credible data.
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