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Thread: Police officer resigns, another is fired after Ferguson incidents[W:76]

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    Re: Police officer resigns, another is fired after Ferguson incidents[W:76]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Yes, the law in TX allows you to use lethal force to protect property. I have told you that from the beginning.

    And it is your opinion that human life is more important than a stereo, even that of a thief.

    I didnt say I disagreed with it....I didnt give my opinion...I explained the law.
    I seriously doubt that the law in Texas allows you to shoot a fleeing thief, but maybe you're right.
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    Re: Police officer resigns, another is fired after Ferguson incidents[W:76]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Really? So, the military could go into Ferguson and kill the people damaging property, and it would all be perfectly legal?

    I don't think so.
    The military, specifically, can kill you if you're trying to damage the property that unit is assigned to protect, yes. The military has to use an escalation of force, but if a riot kept pushing it, killing people is an option.

    A private person cannot be expected to use the same escalation of force mostly because a private person cannot even buy things like tear gas at all. For home defense I would love to have a paint-ball gun loaded with pepper-ball, but only law-enforcement agencies can get that. I can't.

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    Re: Police officer resigns, another is fired after Ferguson incidents[W:76]

    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    The military, specifically, can kill you if you're trying to damage the property that unit is assigned to protect, yes. The military has to use an escalation of force, but if a riot kept pushing it, killing people is an option.

    A private person cannot be expected to use the same escalation of force mostly because a private person cannot even buy things like tear gas at all. For home defense I would love to have a paint-ball gun loaded with pepper-ball, but only law-enforcement agencies can get that. I can't.
    They can kill you even if you pose no threat to them, but only to property?

    No, I really don't think they can, at least not in time of peace. Perhaps in wartime.
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    Re: Police officer resigns, another is fired after Ferguson incidents[W:76]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    They can kill you even if you pose no threat to them, but only to property?
    Lethal force cannot be the first option. Military cannot shoot first and ask later. The military is required to use the least amount of force necessary to prevent loss or damage to a "critical asset", but if a riot were to push the situation to the point where only lethal force can prevent certain imminent damage or loss of a "critical asset", then yes the military can fire on you even if you pose no threat to a military person, only property.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    No, I really don't think they can, at least not in time of peace. Perhaps in wartime.
    Posse Comitatus does not apply to the National Guard. It never did.

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    Re: Police officer resigns, another is fired after Ferguson incidents[W:76]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    Really? So, the military could go into Ferguson and kill the people damaging property, and it would all be perfectly legal?
    No, and that's not what I said, either.

    You never specified what kind of property, who it belongs to, or what previous non-lethal force steps had been taken by the military leading up to the use of lethal force.

    A National Guard unit using lethal force is like a nation using Nukes. It's the absolute last resort, but never off the table.

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    Re: Police officer resigns, another is fired after Ferguson incidents[W:76]

    Quote Originally Posted by Dittohead not! View Post
    I seriously doubt that the law in Texas allows you to shoot a fleeing thief, but maybe you're right.
    Yes, you can. And here's the law:

    9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
    justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
    tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the
    other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
    deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
    arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
    nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
    immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
    robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
    property; and
    (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or
    recovered by any other means; or
    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to
    protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
    another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

    http://law.onecle.com/texas/penal/9.42.00.html
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Police officer resigns, another is fired after Ferguson incidents[W:76]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Yes, you can. And here's the law:

    9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
    justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
    tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the
    other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
    deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
    arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
    nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
    immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
    robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
    property; and
    (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or
    recovered by any other means; or
    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to
    protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
    another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

    Texas Penal Code - Section 9.42. Deadly Force To Protect Property - Texas Attorney Resources - Texas Laws
    I think there is a serious problem with this law, especially after the ruling in Tennessee v Gardner. It basically allows a civilian to shoot a fleeing suspect but not a police officer, which is seriously messed up given that people are much more likely to not have less-than-lethal means of stopping someone than police are. All someone would have to do to legally kill someone is shoot them in the back and put something of theirs in their hand. "He stole my stuff and tried to run away, so I shot him."
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Police officer resigns, another is fired after Ferguson incidents[W:76]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I think there is a serious problem with this law, especially after the ruling in Tennessee v Gardner. It basically allows a civilian to shoot a fleeing suspect but not a police officer, which is seriously messed up given that people are much more likely to not have less-than-lethal means of stopping someone than police are. All someone would have to do to legally kill someone is shoot them in the back and put something of theirs in their hand. "He stole my stuff and tried to run away, so I shot him."
    You think it's that easy to get away with murder, aye?

    A better way is to taze them, cuff them, bury them alive, and deny having ever seen them at all, or that yeah they were there and you exchanged words and they left.

    lots of people go missing all the time.

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    Re: Police officer resigns, another is fired after Ferguson incidents[W:76]

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    I think there is a serious problem with this law, especially after the ruling in Tennessee v Gardner. It basically allows a civilian to shoot a fleeing suspect but not a police officer, which is seriously messed up given that people are much more likely to not have less-than-lethal means of stopping someone than police are. All someone would have to do to legally kill someone is shoot them in the back and put something of theirs in their hand. "He stole my stuff and tried to run away, so I shot him."
    Police, at least in many jurisdictions, can shoot fleeing suspects. I've posted the link a couple of times but there are so many of these threads.

    And since I havent heard of any cases like you described, hopefully it is/would be a rarity. People can do that with a lot of laws, but generally dont. Forensics are pretty good these days....it would require perfect staging.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Police officer resigns, another is fired after Ferguson incidents[W:76]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Yes, you can. And here's the law:

    9.42. DEADLY FORCE TO PROTECT PROPERTY. A person is
    justified in using deadly force against another to protect land or
    tangible, movable property:
    (1) if he would be justified in using force against the
    other under Section 9.41; and
    (2) when and to the degree he reasonably believes the
    deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to prevent the other's imminent commission of
    arson, burglary, robbery, aggravated robbery, theft during the
    nighttime, or criminal mischief during the nighttime; or
    (B) to prevent the other who is fleeing
    immediately after committing burglary, robbery, aggravated
    robbery, or theft during the nighttime from escaping with the
    property; and
    (3) he reasonably believes that:
    (A) the land or property cannot be protected or
    recovered by any other means; or
    (B) the use of force other than deadly force to
    protect or recover the land or property would expose the actor or
    another to a substantial risk of death or serious bodily injury.

    Texas Penal Code - Section 9.42. Deadly Force To Protect Property - Texas Attorney Resources - Texas Laws
    I just don't get why Texas banned open carry with a law like this. You can kill someone trying to carjack you but their death has to be a surprise, you aren't allowed to give them the visual deterrence before hand so maybe they won't do it at all.

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