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Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

Montecresto said:
I'm not going to be supporting hypocrisy. You forgot Hawaii. And the Louisiana Purchase. Buying something from somebody that doesn't even own it. The native occupants weren't consulted at all, and manifest destiny is manifest thievery and genocide.
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You really do dislike your country, don't you? It's a shame. Fortunately not everyone thinks like you do.
 
DDD said:
Ukrainians themselves would push Russia back in an assymetrical, guerilla warfare. To the contrary, it is way cheaper than direct assaults. The "many" that see it "clearly" are a minority here in DP.
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And DP is but a minority in Internet debate forums.
 
fmw said:
You really do dislike your country, don't you? It's a shame. Fortunately not everyone thinks like you do.
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Well I suppose you have nothing to rebut with but that old line. Actually though, dissent is not dislike, and wanting America to be better would only be seen as a negative by people that really do dislike.
 
DA60 said:
I have a question for the Obama administration.

Since you are ignoring the referendum the rebel areas held which stated that they overwhelmingly want to become part of Russia...just how exactly do you suggest they legally leave the Ukraine and join Russia (which apparently the vast majority if the want to do)?

Or do believe in ignoring the wishes of millions of people who wish for self-determination?


I say tell the rebels that if they want to leave, have another referendum that is overseen and approved by the UN.
And if they vote to leave, then they should be allowed to leave.
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Can't risk that, they might actually vote to leave and then have the UN's endorsement of fair and legal voting. That would ruin everything. Better just keep calling it illegal, keep fighting it, and keep hoping that it works, soon!
 
Montecresto said:
No! NATO should stop trying to expand eastward.
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NATO isn't forcibly expanding. Countries are voluntarily joining it. That's their right. And no only does Putin not want them to join NATO, he wants to rebuild the USSR by annexing and invading old territories through force and intimidation.
 
Montecresto said:
And Yanukovych cut off negotiations with the EU and had signed deals with Russia. This implemented a US/EU supported coup, a violent overthrow of the Ukrainian government, and installation of a pro-Western government, immediately (conveniently) recognised by the West.
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What triggered the internal coup was Yanukovych's thug tactics against his own people.
 
Roadvirus said:
What triggered the internal coup was Yanukovych's thug tactics against his own people.
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One - all the coup leaders had to do was wait until January, 2015 for the next scheduled election and then legally boot him out.
It is obvious (imo) that they thought they would lose the legal election, so they staged a coup so that they could take over (or they were just monumentally stupid). Sure Yanukovych was very corrupt. They knew that he was extremely suspect when they elected him - he was a multiple convicted felon (when he was young). But all they had to do was wait a few months...it's not like he was murdering people or starving them to death.
But the coup cost numerous deaths.

Viktor Yanukovych - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Two - the coup was blatantly illegal, yet Obama screamed bloody murder that the referendum in the Crimea was illegal and thus invalid. So why not the illegal coup in Kiev?


The coup was carried out by thugs and/or idiots (imo) who were urged on - either directly or indirectly - by the West.

And what did it accomplish?

Many people were killed in the coup, the Crimea was lost and this bloody civil war in the breakaway region is raging...and for what?

Because they couldn't wait a few months to legally boot their corrupt leader out?
 
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DA60 said:
Nonsense - all the coup leaders had to do was wait until January, 2015 for the next scheduled election. Sure Yanukovych was very corrupt. They knew that he was extremely suspect when they elected him - he was a multiple convicted felon (when he was young). But all they had to do was wait a few months...it's not like he was murdering people or starving them to death.
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Well said. Of course the same logic applies to the seperatists. Russian propaganda aside, the seperatists are not facing death or starvation- just a democracy with a few rough edges.
DA60 said:
Many people were killed, the Crimea was lost, this bloody civil war in the breakaway region and for what? Because they couldn't wait a few months to legally boot their corrupt leader out?
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I disagree here. Listen to Putin's "Ukraine and Russia are one" and "Crimea is Russian" declarations.

Russia was going to move on Crimea (and it is arguably theirs) sooner than later. Likewise, Russia was going to move on eastern Ukraine when the next western oriented Ukrainian presidnet made overtures to Europe.

In short, the loss of Crimea and the Russo Ukrainian war would not have been avoided by curtailing the Maidan protests. They only would have been delayed one year.
 
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Cryptic said:
Well said.
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Thank you.

I disagree here. Listen to Putin's "Ukraine and Russia are one" and "Crimea is Russian" declarations.

Russia was going to move on Crimea (and it is arguably theirs) sooner than later. Likewise, Russia was going to move on eastern Ukraine when the next western oriented Ukrainian presidnet made overtures to Europe.

In short, the loss of Crimea and the Russo Ukrainian war would not have been avoided by curtailing the Maidan protests. They only would have been delayed one year.
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With respect, yes, eventually the Crimea probably would have reverted back to Russia.

But if they had done it under peaceful terms, then perhaps they could have gotten compensation from Putin or something.

This way, they got squat.
 
DA60 said:
Thank you.



With respect, we don't know what would have happened.
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Though I dont have a crystal ball, my strong suspiscion is that just like Ben Ladin was going to try something big sooner or later against the west (he never really concealed it), Putin was going to settle the "Ukrainian question" sooner than later.

I am not comparing Putin to Ben Ladin per se, I am just stating that Putin has never concealed his intentions that Ukraine needs to be restored to its uhmm.... "historical and correct orientation".

In short, Putin was not going to let Ukraine go western with out a fight- maidan or no maidan.
 
Roadvirus said:
NATO isn't forcibly expanding. Countries are voluntarily joining it. That's their right. And no only does Putin not want them to join NATO, he wants to rebuild the USSR by annexing and invading old territories through force and intimidation.
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Except that, Yanukovych withdrew from EU negotiations and signed a deal with Russia instead. And if you recall, Victoria Nuland and the state department began working behind the scenes in October, and had "our man Yat's" lined up as interim replacement. Are we now supporting violent uprisings that drive governments out, under fire, as Yanukovych escaped? Would that go over in America, or any other country in which the US favoured the government that the people might wish to drive from power, I think not. Of course US intrigue in Kiev prompted the Russian response. And it would appear that Russia IS NOT going to stand for it.
 
Roadvirus said:
What triggered the internal coup was Yanukovych's thug tactics against his own people.
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Yanukovych believed he was getting a better deal from Russia, that's why he withdrew from negotiations with the EU. Sure, there are people in Ukraine that would prefer to join the EU, but not all the people do.
 
Montecresto said:
Yanukovych believed he was getting a better deal from Russia, that's why he withdrew from negotiations with the EU. Sure, there are people in Ukraine that would prefer to join the EU, but not all the people do.
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Putin has stated on numerous occasions that Russias and Urkainians are one people and that the borders are "artificial". Maidan or no Maidan, Putin was going to address the Ukrainian questions sooner than later. He is not going to allow Urkaine to go western with out a fight. Rather, he was going to try restore Ukraine to its "proper relationship" with Russia.
 
Cryptic said:
Putin has stated on numerous occasions that Russias and Urkainians are one people and that the borders are "artificial". Maidan or no Maidan, Putin was going to address the Ukrainian questions sooner than later. He is not going to allow Urkaine to go western with out a fight. Rather, he was going to try restore Ukraine to its "proper relationship" with Russia.
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Well of course, there's no question that there was a tug of war if you will between Ukraine and the West and Russia. The point is that in the end, Russia won. Which is where the **** hit the fan, the West naturally not likening that eventuality.

House grilled Nuland over US’ Cooperation with Neo-Nazis in Ukraine

UkraineUkraine - USA RelationsUSA
nsnbc : A two-hour hearing of US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland at the House Foreign Affairs Committee over the Obama administration’s and the US’ role in the developments in Ukraine nailed down Nuland over the United States overt cooperation with and use of neo-Nazis. Nuland tried to dodge questions, explained US plans for Ukraine and told the Committee outright lies about Kiev having “upheld the obligations of the Geneva agreement”. Nuland omitted that Kiev has mobilized Ukraine’s military forces and the presence of large contingents of Ukrainian troops near the Russian border.

Hard times covering-up cooperation with neo-Nazis. It becomes increasingly difficult for the Obama administration and the corporate US press to cover-up the fact that the main driving force behind the coup in Ukraine are neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists, supported by the US.

http://nsnbc.me/2014/05/09/house-grilled-nuland-us-cooperation-neo-nazis-ukraine/
 
Montecresto said:
Well of course, there's no question that there was a tug of war if you will between Ukraine and the West and Russia. The point is that in the end, Russia won.
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They have not won yet. To win, Russia some how needs to force a couter coup in Kiev that elects a Ukrainian president who wants to revert to "little Russia" status.

Also, though there are neo nazis and ultra nationalists on both sides, you are exaggerating their numbers on the Ukrainian side. For example, Putin's propaganda "forgets" to mention these Russian volunteers: http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/08/27/russian-neo-nazi-kornilovtsy-battalion-operating-in-ukraine/
 
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Cryptic said:
They have not won yet. To win, Russia some how needs to force a couter coup in Kiev that elects a Ukrainian president who wants to revert to "little Russia" status.

Also, though there are neo nazis and ultra nationalists on both sides, you are exaggerating their numbers on the Ukrainian side. For example, Putin's propaganda "forgets" to mention these Russian volunteers: Russian neo-Nazi “Kornilovtsy” battalion operating in Ukraine | EUROMAIDAN PRESS | News and Opinion from Across Ukraine
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The won part was the tug of war with the West, when Yanukovych broke off negotiations with the EU and embraced Russia. Of course its true, that the Western backed coup reversed that, which prompted the quite natural response we saw from Russia.

As to numbers, show me your source disputing it.
 
Montecresto said:
Perhaps you don't recognise NATO expansion when you see it. Russia isn't concerned about your opinion, and they're not having it.
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Yes they're not having sovereign nations exercise their inalienable rights to self determination so instead they invade them, annex their territory, and fund, arm, train, and direct terrorists to attempt to destroy them.

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war
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It absolutely is, they freaking invaded them and annexed their territory.

The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all.
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The majority of Ukrainians wanted to enter the EU, the West was not responsible for the wishes of the Ukrainian people, Yanukovych was set to join but instead Russia waged an economic war against them so the Putin puppet President Yanukovych changed his mind leading to massive popular unrest until at the direct behest of Putin he sent in his troops to attack and murder peaceful protesters on November 30th, this is Russia's doing from start to finish.

Furthermore; Yanukovych was ousted by the duly elected Ukrainian Parliament.

Public opinion about Euromaidan

According to December 2013 polls (by three different pollsters) between 45% and 50% of Ukrainians supported Euromaidan, while between 42% and 50% opposed it.[127][128][129] The biggest support for the protest can be found in Kiev (about 75%) and western Ukraine (more than 80%).[127][130] Among Euromaidan protesters, 55% are from the west of the country, with 24% from central Ukraine and 21% from the east.[131]

In a poll taken on 7–8 December, 73% of protesters had committed to continue protesting in Kiev as long as needed until their demands are fulfilled.[6] This number has increased to 82% as of 3 February 2014.[131] Polls also show that the nation is divided in age: while majority of young people are pro-EU, older generations (50 and above) more often prefer the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia.[132] More than 41% of protesters are ready to take part in the seizure of administrative buildings as of February, compared to 13 and 19 percent during polls on 10 and 20 December 2013. At the same time, more than 50 percent are ready to take part in the creation of independent military units, compared to 15 and 21 percent during the past studies, respectively.[131]

Headquarters of the Euromaidan. At the front entrance there is a portrait of Stepan Bandera - fighter for the independence of Ukraine.

According to a January poll, 45% of Ukrainians supported the protests, and 48% of Ukrainians disapproved of Euromaidan.[133]

In a March poll, 57% of Ukrainians said they supported the Euromaidan protests.[134]

Public opinion about joining the EU

According to an August 2013 study by a Donetsk company, Research & Branding Group,[135] 49% of Ukrainians supported signing the Association Agreement, while 31% opposed it and the rest had not decided yet. However, in a December poll by the same company, only 30% claimed that terms of the Association agreement would be beneficial for the Ukrainian economy, while 39% said they were unfavourable for Ukraine. In the same poll, only 30% said the opposition would be able to stabilise the society and govern the country well, if coming to power, while 37% disagreed.[136]

Authors of the GfK Ukraine poll conducted 2–15 October 2013 claim that 45% of respondents believed Ukraine should sign an Association Agreement with the EU, whereas only 14% favoured joining the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia, and 15% preferred non-alignment. Full text of the EU-related question asked by GfK reads, "Should Ukraine sign the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, and, in the future, become an EU member?"[137][138]

Another poll conducted in November by IFAK Ukraine for DW-Trend showed 58% of Ukrainians supporting the country's entry into the European Union.[139] On the other hand a November 2013 poll by Kyiv International Institute of Sociology showed 39% supporting the country's entry into the European Union and 37% supporting Ukraine's accession to the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia.[140]

Kyiv on 12 December: The Christmas tree on Independence square decorated by posters erected by demonstrators

In December 2013, then Prime Minister of Ukraine Mykola Azarov refuted the pro-EU poll numbers claiming that many polls posed questions about Ukraine joining the EU, and that Ukraine had never been invited to join the Union, but only to sign the Association Agreement.[141][142]

Euromaidan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ukraine's Employers Federation: Russia's customs service halts all Ukrainian imports

Ukraine's Employers Federation: Russia's customs service halts all Ukrainian imports

What the Ousted Ukrainian President Tried to Hide Before He Fled

Putin pressured Yanukovych to crack down on the Maidan protesters. Ukrainska Pravda found that the notebooks of Yanukovych's security chief, Kostyantyn Kobzar, detail a private meeting between the two leaders at Putin's residence at Valdai on January 8, as the Maidan protests continued to grow.

What the Ousted Ukrainian President Tried to Hide Before He Fled | New Republic


Ukraine's bloody crackdown leads to call for sanctions
Violent dispersal of pro-European protesters sparks opposition demand for trade embargo


Ukraine's bloody crackdown leads to call for sanctions | World news | The Observer

Ukraine parliament ousts Yanukovich, Tymoshenko freed

Ukraine parliament ousts Yanukovich, Tymoshenko freed | Reuters


And you even posted a freaking article claiming the debunked Russian propaganda regarding the $5 Billion supposedly used to fund the Euromaidan protests, lol you're way behind the propaganda times:


US Did Not Spend $5 Billion to Destabilize Yanukovich

by Eternal HopeFollow

Unfortunately, she did not say what the CT sites said she did. The relevant portion begins at 7:26. However, when she talks of the $5 billion, it is money that the US has spent since 1991 aiding Ukraine since they became independent building up its democratic institutions. This includes plenty of administrations that were pro-US.

US Did Not Spend $5 Billion to Destabilize Yanukovich
 
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Montecresto said:
The won part was the tug of war with the West, when Yanukovych broke off negotiations with the EU and embraced Russia. Of course its true, that the Western backed coup reversed that, which prompted the quite natural response we saw from Russia...
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... followed by a quite natural response from Ukraine, EU, and USA.
 
DDD said:
A minority if all the internet debate forums are combined. One by one comparisons though DP is biggest and best of them all.
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And your proof that it is the biggest (not that I doubt it per se)?


As for being the best...that is a up to the individual to decide.

Have been to several chat forums, I would say DP has it's strengths and weaknesses.

Besides, for you to make such a statements accurately, you would have to have visited them ALL...and I very highly doubt you have done that.
There are an incredible number of debate forums....hundreds I would guess...at least.
 
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DA60 said:
Besides, for you to make such a statements accurately, you would have to have visited them ALL...and I very highly doubt you have done that.
There are an incredible number of debate forums....hundreds I would guess...at least.
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How do you doubt it so highly?
 
DDD said:
How do you doubt it so highly?
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I highly doubt you could find, let alone spend enough time on to determine how 'good' they are; EVERY debate site on the entire net.

There are probably hundreds, at least, in many, many different languages.

Sorry, no way you can convince me you have visited and spent substantial time on ALL of them.


Good day.
 
DA60 said:
I highly doubt you could find, let alone spend enough time on to determine how 'good' they are; EVERY debate site on the entire net.

There are probably hundreds, at least, in many, many different languages.

Sorry, no way you can convince me you have visited and spent substantial time on ALL of them.


Good day.
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And a good day to you too.
 
DA60 said:
One - all the coup leaders had to do was wait until January, 2015 for the next scheduled election and then legally boot him out.
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If Yanky allowed elections. And even then, the elections would be a joke as anyone who tried to oppose him either mysteriously went missing, died or was arrested on trumped up charges like what happens to opposition groups in Russia.


Two - the coup was blatantly illegal
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You know what's also illegal? Murder...as in murdering civilians with snipers on rooftops.


Many people were killed in the coup, the Crimea was lost and this bloody civil war in the breakaway region is raging...and for what?
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Crimea and the "bloody civil war" is all on Russia.
 
DA60 said:
One - all the coup leaders had to do was wait until January, 2015 for the next scheduled election and then legally boot him out.
It is obvious (imo) that they thought they would lose the legal election, so they staged a coup so that they could take over (or they were just monumentally stupid). Sure Yanukovych was very corrupt. They knew that he was extremely suspect when they elected him - he was a multiple convicted felon (when he was young). But all they had to do was wait a few months...it's not like he was murdering people or starving them to death.
But the coup cost numerous deaths.

Viktor Yanukovych - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Two - the coup was blatantly illegal, yet Obama screamed bloody murder that the referendum in the Crimea was illegal and thus invalid. So why not the illegal coup in Kiev?


The coup was carried out by thugs and/or idiots (imo) who were urged on - either directly or indirectly - by the West.

And what did it accomplish?

Many people were killed in the coup, the Crimea was lost and this bloody civil war in the breakaway region is raging...and for what?

Because they couldn't wait a few months to legally boot their corrupt leader out?
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Yanko and his cronies were stealing from the Ukrainian treasury and was a puppet of the hated Putin. There would have been no free or fair elections, Putin would see to it and the people knew that.
Ukrainians hate Russia and want to be free from its domination and Putin won't allow it. That is the short version. But Putin is in a pickle now, he can't give up or he will look weak and he can't win because the US and Europe won't stand for it. All the blustering about being a "major nuclear power" is pityful since he cannot use them without committing suicide.

Washington React: FBI Helps Ukraine Recover Stolen Billions
 
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