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Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

DDD said:
However you put it it was an Invasion of a foreign country's territory.
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Is it? Donetsk People's Republic declared independence. You should understand that concept DDD. Your region went through years of wars in the name of declaring independence from Yugoslavia/Serbia. Those states received help from the west to do so. You know NATO bombings and "peacekeepers" sent (SFOR, KFOR and IFOR) and then use of western special operations in that area.

DDD said:
It may be a revolution all the way to Dnieper also.
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No, it would a fight for independence to the Dnieper.
 
DDD said:
It still can. Russia should back the f out!
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So NATO should have backed the f out of the balkans, right? Don't want you to have a double standard.
 
austrianecon said:
So NATO should have backed the f out of the balkans, right? Don't want you to have a double standard.
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NATO didn't invade the Balkans and annex the sovereign territory of any other nation state and it certainly didn't commit ethnic cleansing the way Russia did in South Ossettia and now in the Crimea.
 
austrianecon said:
Is it? Donetsk People's Republic declared independence.
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Oh freaking spare us Russian backed terrorists turned Donetsk into an armed camp ruled by fear, terror, kidnappings of politicians, journalists, and human rights activists, and the mass murder of civilians including those who refused to fight against their fellow Ukrainians, and now in the Crimea we have overt ethnic cleansing of ethnic Ukrainians.

“We are talking of a reign of fear, if not of terror” in the pockets of territory around Donetsk and Luhansk controlled by armed separatists and now experiencing a state of total lawlessness, Mr. Magazzeni said, citing cases of people shot at checkpoints for no reason and members of armed groups who were summarily shot because they no longer wanted to fight.

“The escalation in criminal activity resulting in human rights abuses is no longer limited to targeting journalists, elected representatives, local politicians, civil servants and civil society activists,” the report stated. “Abductions, detentions, acts of ill-treatment and torture, and killings by armed groups are now affecting the broader population of the two eastern regions.”

The United Nations refugee agency has reported that more than 34,000 Ukrainians have been displaced. Most were from Crimea, where people who speak Ukrainian or do not want to change their nationality to Russian face discrimination and intimidation, Mr. Magazzeni said.

“They are mostly concerned about security: people report staying in cellars to keep away from the fighting, facing harassment at checkpoints and fearing the increasingly common abductions, threats and extortion,” the monitors reported.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/w...tails-casualties-in-eastern-ukraine.html?_r=0

Their "declaration of independence" has as much legitimacy as that of ISIL's declaration of an Islamic State in the Levant, IE none whatsoever.
 
austrianecon said:
Is it? Donetsk People's Republic declared independence. You should understand that concept DDD. Your region went through years of wars in the name of declaring independence from Yugoslavia/Serbia. Those states received help from the west to do so. You know NATO bombings and "peacekeepers" sent (SFOR, KFOR and IFOR) and then use of western special operations in that area.
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I know of them of course. I do not see the similarities though. In this case it just is about Russia's annexation. In our case we were liberated and no other greater country annexed us, we were left on our own.

austrianecon said:
So NATO should have backed the f out of the balkans, right? Don't want you to have a double standard.
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If that would happen Russia would annex the whole of Yugoslavia right now.

austrianecon said:
No, it would a fight for independence to the Dnieper.
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But independence does not occurs does it oh great Austrian Icon? Parts of countries are being annexed one after the other?!
 
face said:
Oh freaking spare us Russian backed terrorists turned Donetsk into an armed camp ruled by fear, terror, kidnappings of politicians, journalists, and human rights activists, and the mass murder of civilians including those who refused to fight against their fellow Ukrainians, and now in the Crimea we have overt ethnic cleansing of ethnic Ukrainians.

“We are talking of a reign of fear, if not of terror” in the pockets of territory around Donetsk and Luhansk controlled by armed separatists and now experiencing a state of total lawlessness, Mr. Magazzeni said, citing cases of people shot at checkpoints for no reason and members of armed groups who were summarily shot because they no longer wanted to fight.

“The escalation in criminal activity resulting in human rights abuses is no longer limited to targeting journalists, elected representatives, local politicians, civil servants and civil society activists,” the report stated. “Abductions, detentions, acts of ill-treatment and torture, and killings by armed groups are now affecting the broader population of the two eastern regions.”

The United Nations refugee agency has reported that more than 34,000 Ukrainians have been displaced. Most were from Crimea, where people who speak Ukrainian or do not want to change their nationality to Russian face discrimination and intimidation, Mr. Magazzeni said.

“They are mostly concerned about security: people report staying in cellars to keep away from the fighting, facing harassment at checkpoints and fearing the increasingly common abductions, threats and extortion,” the monitors reported.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/19/w...tails-casualties-in-eastern-ukraine.html?_r=0

Their "declaration of independence" has as much legitimacy as that of ISIL's declaration of an Islamic State in the Levant, IE none whatsoever.
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We have suffered all these through Russia's Serbian satellite in Europe. Now some claim that the bully's case is a similar one with ours?!

Well, heck no!
 
MichaelW said:
So...no. You cannot prove it.
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That isn't what I said. I said its been hashed out in the European forum, and I'm not going looking for the links to post in a thread unrelated to this thread topic and have the mods complaining. Use google.
 
face said:
Debunked nonsense, the claim that the U.S. funded the protests against Yanukovych is a proven lie despite how much RT and various other Russian State Owned Propaganda mills repeat it:

US Did Not Spend $5 Billion to Destabilize Yanukovich

This has been a war of aggression on the part of Russia from the beginning, first with economic warfare in order to prevent the Ukraine's right to self determination which prompted peaceful protests supported by the majority of Ukrainians which resulted in a Russian puppet at the direct behest of Putin, sending in his jack booted thugs to attack and murder the protesters which resulted in his impeachment followed by his treasonous self imposed exile to Russian occupied territory, then what happened next is Russia invaded, occupied, installed an occupation government with Spec Ops holding AKs and rocket launchers in the Crimean parliamentary building during the swearing in of a new Crimean "prime minister" and this was followed by the outright illegal annexation of sovereign Ukrainian territory by the Russian Federation through a fraudulent and illegal referendum in which only two options were offered cessation or annexation rather than maintaining the status quo and which did not allow for the majority of Ukrainians to participate, and which violated both the Ukrainian and Crimean Constitutions which mandated that all Ukrainians be allowed to participate in any referendum regarding changes of sovereign Ukrainian territory.
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Perhaps you don't recognise NATO expansion when you see it. Russia isn't concerned about your opinion, and they're not having it.

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war
The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/apr/30/russia-ukraine-war-kiev-conflict

http://scgnews.com/washingtons-role-in-the-ukrainian-coup-how-it-may-spin-out-of-control

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article37790.htm
 
Montecresto said:
Perhaps you don't recognise NATO expansion when you see it. Russia isn't concerned about your opinion, and they're not having it.
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Well they can go an f themselves. If they think they can conquer Ukraine they have another thing coming.

Montecresto said:
It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war
The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all.

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war | Seumas Milne | Comment is free | The Guardian

Washington's Role in the Ukrainian Coup & How it May Spin Out of Control | SCG News

The Coup in Ukraine: Obama’s Dumbest Plan Yet
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Ukraine decided to no longer be under the bullies claws and turned to freedom in EU. The EU and USA may have helped after such a decision was made. This is not enough grounds to annex Ukrainian territories like Russia is doing.
 
DDD said:
Well they can go an f themselves. If they think they can conquer Ukraine they have another thing coming.



Ukraine decided to no longer be under the bullies claws and turned to freedom in EU. The EU and USA may have helped after such a decision was made. This is not enough grounds to annex Ukrainian territories like Russia is doing.
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Sorry, it was the EU/US that threw a hissy fit when Yanukovych backed out of negotiations and went with Russia. I think you're mistaken about Russian resolve in this. Just hope you all over there are ready to pay the price to back Russia up.
 
I can only hope that in addition to the ongoing material loss and damage to the Russian economy that Russian intervention brings painful casualties.
 
Montecresto said:
Lower Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada and California.
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New Mexico, Arizona and Nevada were a part of the Gadsden purchase. As for Texas and California, I said the U.S. doesn't annex territory not didn't annex territory. We have some territories that weren't annexed but also added to the sphere of influence. Puerto Rico and Midway are examples. But we haven't done any of that lately. What is it that causes you to critize the U.S. rather than to support and defend it?
 
Montecresto said:
So, the claim was made that the US doesn't annex territory to advance its interests. That wasn't the only time it's been done either.
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So what have you got? Just saying so doesn't make it so.
 
fmw said:
New Mexico, Arizona and Nevada were a part of the Gadsden purchase. As for Texas and California, I said the U.S. doesn't annex territory not didn't annex territory. We have some territories that weren't annexed but also added to the sphere of influence. Puerto Rico and Midway are examples. But we haven't done any of that lately. What is it that causes you to critize the U.S. rather than to support and defend it?
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I'm not going to be supporting hypocrisy. You forgot Hawaii. And the Louisiana Purchase. Buying something from somebody that doesn't even own it. The native occupants weren't consulted at all, and manifest destiny is manifest thievery and genocide.
 
Montecresto said:
Sorry, it was the EU/US that threw a hissy fit when Yanukovych backed out of negotiations and went with Russia. I think you're mistaken about Russian resolve in this. Just hope you all over there are ready to pay the price to back Russia up.
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It is up to Ukraine to decide with whom it wants to go. It choose EU/US, and that is it, Russia should now learn to live without Ukraine.

Why would we care to back Russia the bully up?!
 
EnigmaO01 said:
NATO isn't doing anything of the sort. It's up to a country if they want to be part of NATO. Bullcocky!
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Precisely. And Yanukovych cut off negotiations with the EU and had signed deals with Russia. This implemented a US/EU supported coup, a violent overthrow of the Ukrainian government, and installation of a pro-Western government, immediately (conveniently) recognised by the West. This is fact, and it doesn't matter whether or not you accept it. Russia called bull****, and they seem prepared to pay the price to maintain a buffer between them and the EU. Hopefully, the EU won't push it to the point of all out war.
 
DDD said:
It is up to Ukraine to decide with whom it wants to go. It choose EU/US, and that is it, Russia should now learn to live without Ukraine.

Why would we care to back Russia the bully up?!
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No! The Ukraine chose Russia and the government was overthrown by a US/EU backed coup. If you want Russia to back up, as you stated earlier, you better start pushing. So far, Russia appears resolute.
 
Montecresto said:
No! The Ukraine chose Russia and the government was overthrown by a US/EU backed coup. If you want Russia to back up, as you stated earlier, you better start pushing. So far, Russia appears resolute.
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The majority of the Ukrainians choose EU/US. If it were the reverse the majority would have wanted to be with Russia, and all would have voted to be annexed, etc.

As for pushing it, Russia may come all the way to the Ukrainian western border, but it would do so to its own peril.
 
DDD said:
The majority of the Ukrainians choose EU/US. If it were the reverse the majority would have wanted to be with Russia, and all would have voted to be annexed, etc.

As for pushing it, Russia may come all the way to the Ukrainian western border, but it would do so to its own peril.
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I doubt that that is Russia's intentions, but I wouldn't be so cocky, even if you think that there's somebody there that can push Russia back, it wouldn't be cheap. To the other, there are many that see the clear picture of attempted NATO eastward expansion.
 
I have a question for the Obama administration.

Since you are ignoring the referendum the rebel areas held which stated that they overwhelmingly want to become part of Russia...just how exactly do you suggest they legally leave the Ukraine and join Russia (which apparently the vast majority if the want to do)?

Or do believe in ignoring the wishes of millions of people who wish for self-determination?


I say tell the rebels that if they want to leave, have another referendum that is overseen and approved by the UN.
And if they vote to leave, then they should be allowed to leave.
 
Montecresto said:
I doubt that that is Russia's intentions, but I wouldn't be so cocky, even if you think that there's somebody there that can push Russia back, it wouldn't be cheap. To the other, there are many that see the clear picture of attempted NATO eastward expansion.
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Ukrainians themselves would push Russia back in an assymetrical, guerilla warfare. To the contrary, it is way cheaper than direct assaults. The "many" that see it "clearly" are a minority here in DP.
 
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