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Thread: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    And Yanukovych cut off negotiations with the EU and had signed deals with Russia. This implemented a US/EU supported coup, a violent overthrow of the Ukrainian government, and installation of a pro-Western government, immediately (conveniently) recognised by the West.
    What triggered the internal coup was Yanukovych's thug tactics against his own people.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadvirus View Post
    What triggered the internal coup was Yanukovych's thug tactics against his own people.
    One - all the coup leaders had to do was wait until January, 2015 for the next scheduled election and then legally boot him out.
    It is obvious (imo) that they thought they would lose the legal election, so they staged a coup so that they could take over (or they were just monumentally stupid). Sure Yanukovych was very corrupt. They knew that he was extremely suspect when they elected him - he was a multiple convicted felon (when he was young). But all they had to do was wait a few months...it's not like he was murdering people or starving them to death.
    But the coup cost numerous deaths.

    Viktor Yanukovych - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Two - the coup was blatantly illegal, yet Obama screamed bloody murder that the referendum in the Crimea was illegal and thus invalid. So why not the illegal coup in Kiev?


    The coup was carried out by thugs and/or idiots (imo) who were urged on - either directly or indirectly - by the West.

    And what did it accomplish?

    Many people were killed in the coup, the Crimea was lost and this bloody civil war in the breakaway region is raging...and for what?

    Because they couldn't wait a few months to legally boot their corrupt leader out?
    Last edited by DA60; 08-29-14 at 05:56 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Nonsense - all the coup leaders had to do was wait until January, 2015 for the next scheduled election. Sure Yanukovych was very corrupt. They knew that he was extremely suspect when they elected him - he was a multiple convicted felon (when he was young). But all they had to do was wait a few months...it's not like he was murdering people or starving them to death.
    Well said. Of course the same logic applies to the seperatists. Russian propaganda aside, the seperatists are not facing death or starvation- just a democracy with a few rough edges.
    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Many people were killed, the Crimea was lost, this bloody civil war in the breakaway region and for what? Because they couldn't wait a few months to legally boot their corrupt leader out?
    I disagree here. Listen to Putin's "Ukraine and Russia are one" and "Crimea is Russian" declarations.

    Russia was going to move on Crimea (and it is arguably theirs) sooner than later. Likewise, Russia was going to move on eastern Ukraine when the next western oriented Ukrainian presidnet made overtures to Europe.

    In short, the loss of Crimea and the Russo Ukrainian war would not have been avoided by curtailing the Maidan protests. They only would have been delayed one year.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 08-29-14 at 05:58 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Well said.
    Thank you.

    I disagree here. Listen to Putin's "Ukraine and Russia are one" and "Crimea is Russian" declarations.

    Russia was going to move on Crimea (and it is arguably theirs) sooner than later. Likewise, Russia was going to move on eastern Ukraine when the next western oriented Ukrainian presidnet made overtures to Europe.

    In short, the loss of Crimea and the Russo Ukrainian war would not have been avoided by curtailing the Maidan protests. They only would have been delayed one year.
    With respect, yes, eventually the Crimea probably would have reverted back to Russia.

    But if they had done it under peaceful terms, then perhaps they could have gotten compensation from Putin or something.

    This way, they got squat.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Thank you.



    With respect, we don't know what would have happened.
    Though I dont have a crystal ball, my strong suspiscion is that just like Ben Ladin was going to try something big sooner or later against the west (he never really concealed it), Putin was going to settle the "Ukrainian question" sooner than later.

    I am not comparing Putin to Ben Ladin per se, I am just stating that Putin has never concealed his intentions that Ukraine needs to be restored to its uhmm.... "historical and correct orientation".

    In short, Putin was not going to let Ukraine go western with out a fight- maidan or no maidan.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadvirus View Post
    NATO isn't forcibly expanding. Countries are voluntarily joining it. That's their right. And no only does Putin not want them to join NATO, he wants to rebuild the USSR by annexing and invading old territories through force and intimidation.
    Except that, Yanukovych withdrew from EU negotiations and signed a deal with Russia instead. And if you recall, Victoria Nuland and the state department began working behind the scenes in October, and had "our man Yat's" lined up as interim replacement. Are we now supporting violent uprisings that drive governments out, under fire, as Yanukovych escaped? Would that go over in America, or any other country in which the US favoured the government that the people might wish to drive from power, I think not. Of course US intrigue in Kiev prompted the Russian response. And it would appear that Russia IS NOT going to stand for it.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadvirus View Post
    What triggered the internal coup was Yanukovych's thug tactics against his own people.
    Yanukovych believed he was getting a better deal from Russia, that's why he withdrew from negotiations with the EU. Sure, there are people in Ukraine that would prefer to join the EU, but not all the people do.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Yanukovych believed he was getting a better deal from Russia, that's why he withdrew from negotiations with the EU. Sure, there are people in Ukraine that would prefer to join the EU, but not all the people do.
    Putin has stated on numerous occasions that Russias and Urkainians are one people and that the borders are "artificial". Maidan or no Maidan, Putin was going to address the Ukrainian questions sooner than later. He is not going to allow Urkaine to go western with out a fight. Rather, he was going to try restore Ukraine to its "proper relationship" with Russia.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Putin has stated on numerous occasions that Russias and Urkainians are one people and that the borders are "artificial". Maidan or no Maidan, Putin was going to address the Ukrainian questions sooner than later. He is not going to allow Urkaine to go western with out a fight. Rather, he was going to try restore Ukraine to its "proper relationship" with Russia.
    Well of course, there's no question that there was a tug of war if you will between Ukraine and the West and Russia. The point is that in the end, Russia won. Which is where the **** hit the fan, the West naturally not likening that eventuality.

    House grilled Nuland over US’ Cooperation with Neo-Nazis in Ukraine

    UkraineUkraine - USA RelationsUSA
    nsnbc : A two-hour hearing of US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland at the House Foreign Affairs Committee over the Obama administration’s and the US’ role in the developments in Ukraine nailed down Nuland over the United States overt cooperation with and use of neo-Nazis. Nuland tried to dodge questions, explained US plans for Ukraine and told the Committee outright lies about Kiev having “upheld the obligations of the Geneva agreement”. Nuland omitted that Kiev has mobilized Ukraine’s military forces and the presence of large contingents of Ukrainian troops near the Russian border.

    Hard times covering-up cooperation with neo-Nazis. It becomes increasingly difficult for the Obama administration and the corporate US press to cover-up the fact that the main driving force behind the coup in Ukraine are neo-Nazis and ultra-nationalists, supported by the US.

    http://nsnbc.me/2014/05/09/house-gri...nazis-ukraine/
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Well of course, there's no question that there was a tug of war if you will between Ukraine and the West and Russia. The point is that in the end, Russia won.
    They have not won yet. To win, Russia some how needs to force a couter coup in Kiev that elects a Ukrainian president who wants to revert to "little Russia" status.

    Also, though there are neo nazis and ultra nationalists on both sides, you are exaggerating their numbers on the Ukrainian side. For example, Putin's propaganda "forgets" to mention these Russian volunteers: http://euromaidanpress.com/2014/08/2...ng-in-ukraine/
    Last edited by Cryptic; 08-29-14 at 07:36 PM.

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