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Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

Montecresto said:
Actually, Russian resolve and unflinching is the "period"! Deal with it.
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A resolved and unflinching attitude would not have settled for an agreement as quickly as Putin did with Ukraine today!
 
Montecresto said:
How do you suppose I claimed to be a broker for Russia? My observations tell me that the West made an attempt to expand NATO eastward, that's hardly propaganda. I have also observed that Russia immediately called Bull**** and moved to counter it. It's in their utmost interest to prevent it. I also am observing that Western response to Russia's response hasn't backed Russia up one bit. It would appear that Russia is willing to pay the price to protect their interests, naturally.
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Russia quickly made an agreement with Ukraine rather than follow its threats with military. So I say it backed off quite "one bit" on this one.
 
DA60 said:
Jeez....another 'Ukrainian said this' thread.

Enough already.

Who started this thread anyways?

...

Never mind.
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Funniest post ever. Youre a god, DA60. :lamo
 
EnigmaO01 said:
Come onnnnnn! Don't insult my intelligence. You know damn well what I asked for. All you have to do is read my post!

One more time: where is the prove that your contention that the west, Europe, NATO, CIA, whatever, was behind the protests, overthrow, etc. of the Ukraine government that lead to the situation we are in. All I ask for is a link from a credible source to back up your contention. I'll be waiting but I won't hold my breath.
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You claim you want evidence but claim only the evidence can come from "credible" source. What's a credible source? I find hacked email accounts of Euromaidan leadership pretty credible, but I don't consider MSM as credible either since they are typically a few decades behind the truth.

Ask and you shall receive.

Klitschko emails .

How about the leading US expert on Russia?

Another good read on what's really happening
 
austrianecon said:
I never said it was anything like the US or Swiss today. But rather like the US proposal under the Articles of Confederation, you know the Constitution before the current Constitution. There is nothing wrong with Russia's plan in allowing Donetsk and Luhansk to strike agreements with others (obviously Russia) when this area's biggest trade partner is Russia, not EU, not even Western Ukraine, but Russia.
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Two problems with this.

1) Russia will not allow Ukraine to economically join the European Union (EU) and simultaneously trade with the Eurasian Economic Union (EEC). It is either a EEC union agreement or nothing proposition.

2) The autonomous eastern oblasts would certainly use their Rada parliamentary powers to veto any Kyiv EU initiatives with the West. Such parliamentary power would be akin to Alabama and Mississippi (or any states) being able to veto treaties negotiated by Washington D.C. on behalf of the United States.

These are two of the reasons why the federation schema put forth by Russia are unworkable and amount to dismemberment by other means.
 
Cryptic said:
I hope the full sanctions are still implemented, and stay in place until there is a lasting peace. Putin has been an expert at promising one thing while actually doing the opposite.

In the meantime, the UN could provide expert consultants from northeren Ireland to advise local governments, police and paramilitary forces how to get along with each other. Northeren Ireland and eastern Ukraine have alot in common with each other:
- Two peoples with a shared history, but with seperate identities live on the same land
- Both peoples have legitimate greviences
- Neither side can truly win militarily
- Depite differences, both have a lot in common- so much that they cant really tell each other apart.
- Both sides have alot of factions ranging from the hardcore to the moderate
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West has a habit of doing the same thing to Russia. Tit for Tat.

Northern Ireland and Ukraine HAVE nothing in common.

Three of those on your list are far from true. Ukrainians are closer to Russians (as they all came from the Kiev Rus, Rurik dynasty) then Irish are to Ulster-Scots/Anglo-Saxons. Ulster-Scots/Anglo-Saxons came to Ireland as part of colonization of Ireland (Plantations of Ireland). You can tell a Ulster-Scot from an Irish person as they live in separate communities, support different things, and go to different churches (mostly). Remember, Northern Ireland is the place of "Peace walls".

No such thing as experts consultants on Northern Ireland. The "peace process" is in it's early stages with acts of violence still happening. It's also not a process that can be done easily without the right circumstances. Ukraine situation doesn't have them. Northern Ireland went through almost 30 years of violence before "peace" became possible. Those who were fighting in the early 70's in the 20s were hitting their 50's and in charge during the 1990s. It took them a good 25 years to accept the reality that they couldn't win out right and it took 25 years for UK Government to realize it couldn't win either. Then there is nobody in Ukraine who has the respect of both extreme factions like Northern Ireland had John Hume with the help of David Trimble. Also there is no 3rd party (Nation) that can step in from a neutral role like the US did in Northern Ireland peace process.

So it's kinda fool hearty to believe the two are related.
 
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Simpleχity;1063717076 said:
Two problems with this.

1) Russia will not allow Ukraine to economically join the European Union (EU) and simultaneously trade with the Eurasian Economic Union (EEC). It is either a EEC union agreement or nothing proposition.

2) The autonomous eastern oblasts would certainly use their Rada parliamentary powers to veto any Kyiv EU initiatives with the West. Such parliamentary power would be akin to Alabama and Mississippi (or any states) being able to veto treaties negotiated by Washington D.C. on behalf of the United States.

These are two of the reasons why the federation schema put forth by Russia are unworkable and amount to dismemberment by other means.
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1) Because EU membership requires alliance militarily with EU and NATO. Russia will go ballistic (pun intended) if Ukraine joins NATO. Russia doesn't want NATO on it's main border and has for years said, Poland and no further.

2) 2 Oblasts of 24 has the ability to block what 22 other approve? Do you not see the problem with your analogy? Each US State has a 2 votes (Senators) on treaties. It would take 25 States plus one Senator from another State to block a treaty. It would require likely the same thing in Ukraine.

The only option left on the table is let those 2 Oblasts go and Ukraine can be free to do what it wants. Problem is EU and IMF want those 2 Oblasts for their resources. Hence here we are..
 
austrianecon said:
You claim you want evidence but claim only the evidence can come from "credible" source. What's a credible source? I find hacked email accounts of Euromaidan leadership pretty credible, but I don't consider MSM as credible either since they are typically a few decades behind the truth.

Ask and you shall receive.

Klitschko emails .

How about the leading US expert on Russia?

Another good read on what's really happening
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You're kidding right? An anonymous source and two blogs? Seriously? Wow such low standards.

I rest my case. There is no proof that the west was involved in overthrow of the Ukrainian government, protests, etc. etc. None! You people are just making stuff up to fit what you want to believe. You'd make state run Russian news proud!
 
DA60 said:
Although, I do not agree with the practise.

I think it is laughable for Russia to be sanctioned for supporting Ukrainian rebels when America openly supports other countries/organizations (often, corrupt regimes like Saudi Arabia) with many times the arms and support then Russia does; and yet no one even hints at sanctioning America for it.

Pure hypocrisy.
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The only difference is that the US isn't out there looking to steal land/conquer and create or "reclaim" an empire. Presently it is obvious Russia is looking to reclaim the USSR.
 
MadLib said:
Oh, that's right! Nuland was handing out cookies at a Maidan protest! That proves covert ops.

Those two things and the aid package(s) to the post-revolution government are literally the only things I've seen as an attempt to connect NATO to the overthrow of Yanukovych.
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Well it wasn't just NATO though.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
Oh yes the ol' I've posted it here before or it's obvious so I'm not posting a link.

Please you're making me laugh so hard I'm about to fall off my chair.
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Don't hurt yourself and blame that on me too.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
First you say it's not clear what I'm asking for.

Then you say to google it myself.

And finally you say it's been posted here already.


You know the more you fib the deeper the hole gets.
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Right, myself and others have posted it before,

You actually could google it yourself,

And it's not me digging holes. It's not important that you understand this, Putin does and has responded accordingly, which is why Crimea is Russia, lol!
 
DDD said:
Russia and Ukraine just agreed to seize fire did they not?
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Yes, Poroshenko and the separatists have agreed to that. Russia's not in Ukraine, remember.
 
austrianecon said:
Three of those on your list are far from true. Ukrainians are closer to Russians (as they all came from the Kiev Rus, Rurik dynasty) then Irish are to Ulster-Scots/Anglo-Saxons. Ulster-Scots/Anglo-Saxons came to Ireland as part of colonization of Ireland (Plantations of Ireland). You can tell a Ulster-Scot from an Irish person as they live in separate communities, support different things, and go to different churches (mostly).
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Actually, nothren Ireland and eastern Ukraine are very similar. The fact that Ukrainians and Russians were arguably one people 900 years ago does not mean they are close today. As for colonization, many Russians migrated to Donbass for industrial work starting in the 1890s. This migration continued through the communist era as industrialization expanded. So, like the ulster scots, there is a community that has resided in an area for generations, but is arguably not native.
austrianecon said:
You can tell a Ulster-Scot from an Irish person as they live in separate communities, support different things, and go to different churches (mostly).
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No, you cannot always tell Ulster Scot from Irish physically or by interests. There was alot of mistaken identity killings on both sides.
Likewise, you cant tell "Ukrainian" from "Russian" physically, nor is always easy to tell who is speaking "Russian" verse eastern Ukrainian dialect. Like the Ulster scots and Irish, there are seperate interests- but only to a degree.

Seperate Churches? Most western Ukrainians are Greek Catholic, or Ukrainian Orthodox (Kiev Patriachate). Eastern Ukrainians tend to be Ukrainian Orthodox (Moscow Patriarchate), ethnic Russians tend to be Russian Orthodox.

Seperate communites? Not so much, though there are towns and villages that are strongly ethnic Russian or ethnic Ukrainian. This may actually help as people need to live with their neighbors.
austrianecon said:
No such thing as experts consultants on Northern Ireland. The "peace process" is in it's early stages with acts of violence still happening. It's also not a process that can be done easily without the right circumstances.
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Things are not perfect in northeren Ireland? I believe you. And, yes, things are not going to be perfect in eastern Ukraine anytime soon. The goal, howevber, is not perfection. Rather, the goal is no continuos car bombs / grad exchanges. Likewise, I bet the northeren Irish can give some advise on generating the right circumstances.
austrianecon said:
Then there is nobody in Ukraine who has the respect of both extreme factions like Northern Ireland had John Hume with the help of David Trimble. Also there is no 3rd party (Nation) that can step in from a neutral role like the US did in Northern Ireland peace process.
.
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Hopefully, those people can be cultivated. Good point about the no 3rd nation though. That is porbably the only valid point.
 
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MadLib said:
Oh, that's right! Nuland was handing out cookies at a Maidan protest! That proves covert ops.

Those two things and the aid package(s) to the post-revolution government are literally the only things I've seen as an attempt to connect NATO to the overthrow of Yanukovych.
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Apparently, you aren't aware of the history of NATO. GHWBUSH promised Gorbachev that their would be no NATO expansion eastward as the Soviet Union withdrew their troops (some 350,000) from Eastern Europe. We all have seen how that worked out, and this latest was yet another expansion to the east that Russia is attempting to check. But as I said before, it doesn't matter what you and I think, Putin clearly saw the events that unfolded last fall and winter as a Western backed coup to topple the Ukrainian government and install a pro-West government, and he has said so, Lavrov has said so, and they have called bull**** and responded accordingly.
 
DDD said:
A resolved and unflinching attitude would not have settled for an agreement as quickly as Putin did with Ukraine today!
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Oh, you think Putins returning the Crimea? Lol.
 
EnigmaO01 said:
You're kidding right? An anonymous source and two blogs? Seriously? Wow such low standards.

I rest my case. There is no proof that the west was involved in overthrow of the Ukrainian government, protests, etc. etc. None! You people are just making stuff up to fit what you want to believe. You'd make state run Russian news proud!
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You're welcome to rest if you must. It's funny that you don't know who Anonymous Ukraine is.

The Nation, is NOT a blog.

The Guardian is not a blog.

You, have been outsourced! Lol.
 
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The solution to this problem is very simple - drop the Ukraine whatever they need to beat the Russians back...

Of course the only problem with that is that Obama is Putin's whipping boy.

Putin may be an arrogant clown looking to reclaim the USSR but he isn't stupid - he damn well knows if he gets too far out of line our next president (if not a progressive democrat) will put him in his place.

My message to Putin would be; "do you want to go bankrupt again?"
 
Mr.Nick said:
The only difference is that the US isn't out there looking to steal land/conquer and create or "reclaim" an empire. Presently it is obvious Russia is looking to reclaim the USSR.
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No its not so obvious to everyone. Only to those patronising Americans who both hate and are scared of Russia. To the rest, its Russia's attempt to check more NATO expansion. And it's irrelevant that you or anyone else understands that, Putin does!
 
Montecresto said:
No its not so obvious to everyone. Only to those patronising Americans who both hate and are scared of Russia. To the rest, its Russia's attempt to check more NATO expansion. And it's irrelevant that you or anyone else understands that, Putin does!
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That is such twisted logic...

No, Putin want's the Ukraine for it's resources - resources he can use to expand his desire to manifest a USSRII..

I don't fail to realize anything - what I see is a sovereign nation being hijacked and bullied.

Russia is **** and Putin is **** and if I was president none of this would even be happening now...

Oh and the UN - well they can suck my middle finger.. What are they going to do? sanction the US? yeah right!
 
Mr.Nick said:
That is such twisted logic...

No, Putin want's the Ukraine for it's resources - resources he can use to expand his desire to manifest a USSRII..

I don't fail to realize anything - what I see is a sovereign nation being hijacked and bullied.

Russia is **** and Putin is **** and if I was president none of this would even be happening now...

Oh and the UN - well they can suck my middle finger.. What are they going to do? sanction the US? yeah right!
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Well, thankfully you aren't president, and Putin saw this for what it is, its irrelevant that you don't, and, Crimea is Russia! And Russia has preserved the warm water ports.
 
Montecresto said:
Well, thankfully you aren't president, and Putin saw this for what it is, its irrelevant that you don't, and, Crimea is Russia! And Russia has preserved the warm water ports.
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No you don't see it for what it is..... The Ukraine was NEVER a threat to Russia and Russia is the aggressor...

Russia is being a bully, they pulled the same crap with Georgia 5-6 years ago.....

The most ironic part is I bet you're anti-bullying to boot.
 
Mr.Nick said:
No you don't see it for what it is..... The Ukraine was NEVER a threat to Russia and Russia is the aggressor...

Russia is being a bully, they pulled the same crap with Georgia 5-6 years ago.....

The most ironic part is I bet you're anti-bullying to boot.
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In regards to Georgia, if you actually follow the timeline of events, Georgia did some pretty stupid things that aggravate Russia and Georgia was under no allusion as to what would happen if they did exactly what they did.

Georgia is a very different case then Ukraine.
 
Jetboogieman said:
In regards to Georgia, if you actually follow the timeline of events, Georgia did some pretty stupid things that aggravate Russia and Georgia was under no allusion as to what would happen if they did exactly what they did.

Georgia is a very different case then Ukraine.
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Yeah right - Russia just wanted an oil pipeline.

Russia has no damn concept of paying for what they want - they just steal it via war.
 
Mr.Nick said:
Yeah right - Russia just wanted an oil pipeline.

Russia has no damn concept of paying for what they want - they just steal it via war.
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It's not that hard to read. Georgia fired the first shots of that war. You could say they were provoked, but they fired first. Russian troops were there under the auspices of an agreement they had reached with Georgia with regards to South Ossetia. Georgia pulled out of the agreement (unilaterally), and decided that firing on the Russians was a good idea. Which it wasn't.
 
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