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Thread: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

  1. #221
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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    I call meetings that end in a day as "rushed." Further if Putin obliged to Obama's request then he is a puppet, unlike what you idealize him to be.
    Oh, ok. Putin is now a puppet of the West. In that case, what's all the fuss. And, if my support of Russia in what has been clearly a Western backed coup of the legitimate government of Kiev equates to idolatry of Putin. Then your support of Obama in carrying out the coup must equate to your own idolatry. Oh yes, and when will the "puppet" be returning Crimea?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Another Russian sympathizer. No surprise there.
    I like how you just completely ignored the evidence I provided and went straight to the ad hominem arguments.
    "For what is Evil but Good-tortured by its own hunger and thirst?"
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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Oh, ok. Putin is now a puppet of the West. In that case, what's all the fuss. And, if my support of Russia in what has been clearly a Western backed coup of the legitimate government of Kiev equates to idolatry of Putin. Then your support of Obama in carrying out the coup must equate to your own idolatry. Oh yes, and when will the "puppet" be returning Crimea?
    Whenever reason comes back to him.

    Further, Ukraine choose the EU/US, and there is nothing what Russia has to cry about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Demon of Light View Post
    I like how you just completely ignored the evidence I provided and went straight to the ad hominem arguments.
    It's what he's done through the entire thread. Basically its a waste.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Actually, nothren Ireland and eastern Ukraine are very similar.
    Oh sweet jesus.. you are arguing with person who's parents are/were Irish Republicans (father passed in the conflict), a person who's an Irish Republican himself (though I disagree with their socialist aspects and violence right now) and as a kid spent his summers in Belfast and surrounding areas what Northern Ireland is about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    The fact that Ukrainians and Russians were arguably one people 900 years ago does not mean they are close today. As for colonization, many Russians migrated to Donbass for industrial work starting in the 1890s. This migration continued through the communist era as industrialization expanded. So, like the ulster scots, there is a community that has resided in an area for generations, but is arguably not native.
    Ukrainians and Russia share the same royal family until 1917 (Bolshevik revolution). Before 1922 Ukraine didn't have a national identity, rather it was land that was split between Poland, Russia and left overs of the Austro-Hungarian empire. The Bolsheviks created a Ukrainization policy to help spread communism in the area. Russian immigrated the the area of Donbas long before 1890s. Donbas and as far as Odessa was known as Novorossiya (New Russia) and was formed in 1764 after the Russians pushed the Turks out of the area.




    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    No, you cannot always tell Ulster Scot from Irish physically or by interests. There was alot of mistaken identity killings on both sides.
    Likewise, you cant tell "Ukrainian" from "Russian" physically, nor is always easy to tell who is speaking "Russian" verse eastern Ukrainian dialect. Like the Ulster scots and Irish, there are seperate interests- but only to a degree.
    Physically, no, as they are white but genetically you can. Irish have some of the highest rates of haplogroup 1 gene in Europe and are more closely related to Basque people. Irish settled part of Scotland between 400-800 AD so there is some over lap but the levels drop off dramatically with Scots and English.

    Interest wise there is a huge difference and why there has been trouble in Northern Ireland since 1600s as Culturally both sides don't mix. Ulster Scots support the Union. Irish support the Republic. Ulster Scots will support Rangers FC, Irish will support Celtic FC. Ulster Scots are Protestants, Irish are Catholic (this is 99% true, there cases otherwise). They live separate of each other. You live on Falls Road, you are Irish. You live on Shankill, you are Ulster Scot. There are about another dozen differences in interests and politically they disagree on.

    What you are confusing is what you perceive from your own ears and eyes vs a person like me who spent years worth in Northern Ireland, have family there, visit family there regularly, parents were from there and I myself lived in the Republic for a few years myself. I can tell a difference in dialect and so can UK Government and the EU. Hell in the Good Friday Agreement they recognize the difference. So before you go and tell me you can't tell the differences between groups, think about people who've lived there for years.

    By the way.. two things before I finish out this part.. 1) I think wanting to be part of Russia or have your own country is a MAJOR difference, just as wanting to be part of the Republic of Ireland is a major difference then being part of the United Kingdom. 2) In war accidents happen or false intel is given but that "mistaken" identity crap is hooey.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Seperate Churches? Most western Ukrainians are Greek Catholic, or Ukrainian Orthodox (Kiev Patriachate). Eastern Ukrainians tend to be Ukrainian Orthodox (Moscow Patriarchate), ethnic Russians tend to be Russian Orthodox.
    No, I am speaking of Northern Ireland. This is a difference that Ukraine doesn't have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Seperate communites? Not so much, though there are towns and villages that are strongly ethnic Russian or ethnic Ukrainian. This may actually help as people need to live with their neighbors.
    Again, a difference between Northern Ireland and Ukraine. Separate communities are the norm in Northern Ireland. And it actually harms peace and assimilation as the British found out in Northern Ireland but Northern Ireland is so far gone is this aspect that its impossible to correct the problem quickly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Things are not perfect in northeren Ireland? I believe you. And, yes, things are not going to be perfect in eastern Ukraine anytime soon. The goal, howevber, is not perfection. Rather, the goal is no continuos car bombs / grad exchanges. Likewise, I bet the northeren Irish can give some advise on generating the right circumstances.
    What you fail to understand is Northern Ireland and Ireland as a whole has spent 800 years and countless rebellions and such to achieve a half-assed attempt which will fail in the future. There are younger generations ( late X, Y and Z) who are waiting in the wings developing their hatred, their anger, and their abilities for a future conflict in Northern Ireland. They don't trust Sinn Fein and becoming more and more aggressive towards Sinn Fein. Hell, RIRA (the biggest of group) sent mail bombs to Army recruiting stations in England early this year, set of a car bomb this year as well.

    The goal should be a long term solution. Not a half-assed that leads to wars later.

    Just an FYI.. last time Irish and Ulster Scots (there is no such thing as Northern Irish, ) gave advise in the world was over Iraq in the Helsinki Agreement (2007). How'd that go? Each country is different and needs their own answers.



    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Hopefully, those people can be cultivated. Good point about the no 3rd nation though. That is porbably the only valid point.
    Won't happen. Both sides are so far apart that people have chosen sides and there is no neutral voice in Ukraine.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    No, it is not that simple. You are ignoring the very real compromise of varying degrees of local autonomy. The Ukrainians have already promised that governors will be elected rather than appointed- thus assuring that local governors have local accents, mannerisms and cultural understandings. Prior to the arrival of the Russian volunteers, most locals did not want anchluss with Russia per se.
    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    What you are confusing is what you perceive from your own ears and eyes vs a person like me who spent years worth in Northern Ireland, have family there, visit family there regularly, parents were from there and I myself lived in the Republic for a few years myself. I can tell a difference in dialect and so can UK Government and the EU. Hell in the Good Friday Agreement they recognize the difference. So before you go and tell me you can't tell the differences between groups, think about people who've lived there for years.
    Is there any chance that not all irish and ulster scots speak in distinct dialects? Strangely, this person says that he cant tell irish from ulster scot based on accent- why would he claim such "nonsense"?

    What are the differences between the way Catholics and Protestants speak English in Northern Ireland? - Quora

    So, though I have never been to northeren Ireland, my guess is that no, it is not always possible to pick out ulster scots and irish based solely on their accents.

    Dont get me wrong, I am sure there are some Ulster scots and Irish who strongly identify with their religion, speak in distinct accents, always wear distinct clothing, never leave a secterian area, and never assosciate with anybody not of their sect etc.

    There are probably other people though, where the outward differences are not so dinstict. It might not always possible to tell who is who at a glance. For example, even an expert might not have been able to have walked down that street in Omagh before the bombing (both catholics and protestants killed) and picked the protestants from the catholics by glancing at them, or by listening to them speak.

    It seems to be he same situation in east Ukraine. Some people are distinct, some not so distinct.
    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Ukrainians and Russia share the same royal family until 1917 (Bolshevik revolution). Before 1922 Ukraine didn't have a national identity, rather it was land that was split between Poland, Russia and left overs of the Austro-Hungarian empire. The Bolsheviks created a Ukrainization policy to help spread communism in the area. Russian immigrated the the area of Donbas long before 1890s. Donbas and as far as Odessa was known as Novorossiya (New Russia) and was formed in 1764 after the Russians pushed the Turks out of the area.
    When Russia gained control of the area, and named it NovoRossya, it does not mean the areas had large Russian populations. Britain named an Island in the Pacific "New Britain" as well. That does not mean there were alot of Britains there.

    In the case of Ukraine, yes, an ethnic Russian population did exist prior to 1890. Industrialization in the 1890s and communism greatly increased that population. The Soviets had a policy of Russification where ethnic Russians (more pro Soviet) were encouraged to move to, or were transfered to other republics. This greatly increased the numbers of ethnic Russians in east Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Tandinistra, Karelia, Latvia, Lithuania and espescially Estonia (ethnic Russians eventually outnumbered native Estonians).

    Poland also did not exist for centuries, had the same royal family as Russians, yet nobody would think the Poles and Russians are a single people

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    Physically, no, as they are white but genetically you can. Irish have some of the highest rates of haplogroup 1 gene in Europe and are more closely related to Basque people. Irish settled part of Scotland between 400-800 AD so there is some over lap but the levels drop off dramatically with Scots and English.
    DNA hapalong groups have no bearing on how people percieve themselves. For example, Croats and Serbs may well be close genetically- but they perceive themselves as very seperate peoples.
    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    The goal should be a long term solution. Not a half-assed that leads to wars later.
    Though I have never to been to northren Ireland, I bet most people living there prefer the results "half assed" peace agreement- how ever imperfect it maybe, to say, the conditions of 1975 and 1980.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 09-06-14 at 12:52 PM.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by austrianecon View Post
    By the way.. two things before I finish out this part.. 1) I think wanting to be part of Russia or have your own country is a MAJOR difference, just as wanting to be part of the Republic of Ireland is a major difference then being part of the United Kingdom.
    No, it is not that simple. You are ignoring the very real compromise of varying degrees of local autonomy. The Ukrainians have already promised that governors will be elected rather than appointed- thus assuring that local governors have local accents, mannerisms and cultural understandings. Prior to the arrival of the Russian volunteers, most locals did not want anchluss with Russia per se

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    No, it is not that simple. You are ignoring the very real compromise of varying degrees of local autonomy. The Ukrainians have already promised that governors will be elected rather than appointed- thus assuring that local governors have local accents, mannerisms and cultural understandings. Prior to the arrival of the Russian volunteers, most locals did not want anchluss with Russia per se.
    Sorry for the late response.. stuff going on that didn't allow my full attention.

    There has never been a real compromise of varying degrees of local autonomy, in Ukraine or Northern Ireland. Also, Ukraine blew that out of the water once it bombed Civilian populations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Is there any chance that not all irish and ulster scots speak in distinct dialects? Strangely, this person says that he cant tell irish from ulster scot based on accent- why would he claim such "nonsense"? So, though I have never been to northeren Ireland, my guess is that no, it is not always possible to pick out ulster scots and irish based solely on their accents.
    Quora as your proof is pretty bad. Northern Ireland education is still pretty inclusive. Protestants went to Protestant schools, Catholics went to Catholic schools. You learn your language abilities in school and at home so you become very isolated. All you have to do is look at the US, you can spot a person from NYC born and raised vs a person born and raised in Boston.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Dont get me wrong, I am sure there are some Ulster scots and Irish who strongly identify with their religion, speak in distinct accents, always wear distinct clothing, never leave a secterian area, and never assosciate with anybody not of their sect etc.
    Read above.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    There are probably other people though, where the outward differences are not so dinstict. It might not always possible to tell who is who at a glance. For example, even an expert might not have been able to have walked down that street in Omagh before the bombing (both catholics and protestants killed) and picked the protestants from the catholics by glancing at them, or by listening to them speak.
    Omagh was a catholic community and a massive mistake at the fault of UK, US and Republic of Ireland Governments. As all three had agents involved in the bombing. From stealing the car used in the bombing to the man who provided the material for the bombing. All 3 decided to protect assets instead of innocent people. The agents involved were David Rupert and Paddy Dixon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    When Russia gained control of the area, and named it NovoRossya, it does not mean the areas had large Russian populations. Britain named an Island in the Pacific "New Britain" as well. That does not mean there were alot of Britains there.
    This is an assumption, Novorossiya was the name of the region dating back to 1764 when the Russian's conquered it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    In the case of Ukraine, yes, an ethnic Russian population did exist prior to 1890. Industrialization in the 1890s and communism greatly increased that population. The Soviets had a policy of Russification where ethnic Russians (more pro Soviet) were encouraged to move to, or were transfered to other republics. This greatly increased the numbers of ethnic Russians in east Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Tandinistra, Karelia, Latvia, Lithuania and espescially Estonia (ethnic Russians eventually outnumbered native Estonians).
    This is also false. Novorossiya was known as the wild fields. . Basically it was an unsettled area. Owned by various empires and never Ukrainian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Poland also did not exist for centuries, had the same royal family as Russians, yet nobody would think the Poles and Russians are a single people
    LOL. Poland is, like Russian and Ukrainian people are Slavs. Poland has existed since (in our sense) the 10th century under Piast Dynasty.





    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    DNA hapalong groups have no bearing on how people percieve themselves. For example, Croats and Serbs may well be close genetically- but they perceive themselves as very seperate peoples.
    Very true. But yet you won't recognized separatist in Eastern Ukraine as a separate people. See the problem with your answer?


    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Though I have never to been to northren Ireland, I bet most people living there prefer the results "half assed" peace agreement- how ever imperfect it maybe, to say, the conditions of 1975 and 1980.
    LOL!! You do realize nothing has changed there. That while the violence is down (and that's a good thing) but Republicanism doesn't see GFA as the final act but rather are pushing for a United Ireland and are using the ballot box to achieve it's goals today. Much like those in Crimea, NovoRossiya.
    Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. It is inaccurate to say that I hate everything. I am strongly in favor of common sense, common honesty, and common decency. This makes me forever ineligible for public office. H.L Mencken

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    Whenever reason comes back to him.

    Further, Ukraine choose the EU/US, and there is nothing what Russia has to cry about that.
    Lol, that's some response.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Lol, that's some response.
    Likewise.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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