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Thread: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    They have not won yet. To win, Russia some how needs to force a couter coup in Kiev that elects a Ukrainian president who wants to revert to "little Russia" status.

    Also, though there are neo nazis and ultra nationalists on both sides, you are exaggerating their numbers on the Ukrainian side. For example, Putin's propaganda "forgets" to mention these Russian volunteers: Russian neo-Nazi “Kornilovtsy” battalion operating in Ukraine | EUROMAIDAN PRESS | News and Opinion from Across Ukraine
    The won part was the tug of war with the West, when Yanukovych broke off negotiations with the EU and embraced Russia. Of course its true, that the Western backed coup reversed that, which prompted the quite natural response we saw from Russia.

    As to numbers, show me your source disputing it.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Perhaps you don't recognise NATO expansion when you see it. Russia isn't concerned about your opinion, and they're not having it.
    Yes they're not having sovereign nations exercise their inalienable rights to self determination so instead they invade them, annex their territory, and fund, arm, train, and direct terrorists to attempt to destroy them.


    It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war
    It absolutely is, they freaking invaded them and annexed their territory.

    The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all.
    The majority of Ukrainians wanted to enter the EU, the West was not responsible for the wishes of the Ukrainian people, Yanukovych was set to join but instead Russia waged an economic war against them so the Putin puppet President Yanukovych changed his mind leading to massive popular unrest until at the direct behest of Putin he sent in his troops to attack and murder peaceful protesters on November 30th, this is Russia's doing from start to finish.

    Furthermore; Yanukovych was ousted by the duly elected Ukrainian Parliament.

    Public opinion about Euromaidan

    According to December 2013 polls (by three different pollsters) between 45% and 50% of Ukrainians supported Euromaidan, while between 42% and 50% opposed it.[127][128][129] The biggest support for the protest can be found in Kiev (about 75%) and western Ukraine (more than 80%).[127][130] Among Euromaidan protesters, 55% are from the west of the country, with 24% from central Ukraine and 21% from the east.[131]

    In a poll taken on 7–8 December, 73% of protesters had committed to continue protesting in Kiev as long as needed until their demands are fulfilled.[6] This number has increased to 82% as of 3 February 2014.[131] Polls also show that the nation is divided in age: while majority of young people are pro-EU, older generations (50 and above) more often prefer the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia.[132] More than 41% of protesters are ready to take part in the seizure of administrative buildings as of February, compared to 13 and 19 percent during polls on 10 and 20 December 2013. At the same time, more than 50 percent are ready to take part in the creation of independent military units, compared to 15 and 21 percent during the past studies, respectively.[131]

    Headquarters of the Euromaidan. At the front entrance there is a portrait of Stepan Bandera - fighter for the independence of Ukraine.

    According to a January poll, 45% of Ukrainians supported the protests, and 48% of Ukrainians disapproved of Euromaidan.[133]

    In a March poll, 57% of Ukrainians said they supported the Euromaidan protests.[134]

    Public opinion about joining the EU


    According to an August 2013 study by a Donetsk company, Research & Branding Group,[135] 49% of Ukrainians supported signing the Association Agreement, while 31% opposed it and the rest had not decided yet. However, in a December poll by the same company, only 30% claimed that terms of the Association agreement would be beneficial for the Ukrainian economy, while 39% said they were unfavourable for Ukraine. In the same poll, only 30% said the opposition would be able to stabilise the society and govern the country well, if coming to power, while 37% disagreed.[136]

    Authors of the GfK Ukraine poll conducted 2–15 October 2013 claim that 45% of respondents believed Ukraine should sign an Association Agreement with the EU, whereas only 14% favoured joining the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan, and Russia, and 15% preferred non-alignment. Full text of the EU-related question asked by GfK reads, "Should Ukraine sign the EU-Ukraine Association Agreement, and, in the future, become an EU member?"[137][138]

    Another poll conducted in November by IFAK Ukraine for DW-Trend showed 58% of Ukrainians supporting the country's entry into the European Union.[139] On the other hand a November 2013 poll by Kyiv International Institute of Sociology showed 39% supporting the country's entry into the European Union and 37% supporting Ukraine's accession to the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia.[140]

    Kyiv on 12 December: The Christmas tree on Independence square decorated by posters erected by demonstrators

    In December 2013, then Prime Minister of Ukraine Mykola Azarov refuted the pro-EU poll numbers claiming that many polls posed questions about Ukraine joining the EU, and that Ukraine had never been invited to join the Union, but only to sign the Association Agreement.[141][142]


    Euromaidan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Ukraine's Employers Federation: Russia's customs service halts all Ukrainian imports

    Ukraine's Employers Federation: Russia's customs service halts all Ukrainian imports

    What the Ousted Ukrainian President Tried to Hide Before He Fled


    Putin pressured Yanukovych to crack down on the Maidan protesters. Ukrainska Pravda found that the notebooks of Yanukovych's security chief, Kostyantyn Kobzar, detail a private meeting between the two leaders at Putin's residence at Valdai on January 8, as the Maidan protests continued to grow.

    What the Ousted Ukrainian President Tried to Hide Before He Fled | New Republic


    Ukraine's bloody crackdown leads to call for sanctions
    Violent dispersal of pro-European protesters sparks opposition demand for trade embargo



    Ukraine's bloody crackdown leads to call for sanctions | World news | The Observer

    Ukraine parliament ousts Yanukovich, Tymoshenko freed


    Ukraine parliament ousts Yanukovich, Tymoshenko freed | Reuters


    And you even posted a freaking article claiming the debunked Russian propaganda regarding the $5 Billion supposedly used to fund the Euromaidan protests, lol you're way behind the propaganda times:


    US Did Not Spend $5 Billion to Destabilize Yanukovich

    by Eternal HopeFollow

    Unfortunately, she did not say what the CT sites said she did. The relevant portion begins at 7:26. However, when she talks of the $5 billion, it is money that the US has spent since 1991 aiding Ukraine since they became independent building up its democratic institutions. This includes plenty of administrations that were pro-US.


    US Did Not Spend $5 Billion to Destabilize Yanukovich
    Last edited by face, your; 08-30-14 at 12:47 AM.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    And DP is but a minority in Internet debate forums.
    A minority if all the internet debate forums are combined. One by one comparisons though DP is biggest and best of them all.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    The won part was the tug of war with the West, when Yanukovych broke off negotiations with the EU and embraced Russia. Of course its true, that the Western backed coup reversed that, which prompted the quite natural response we saw from Russia...
    ... followed by a quite natural response from Ukraine, EU, and USA.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    A minority if all the internet debate forums are combined. One by one comparisons though DP is biggest and best of them all.
    And your proof that it is the biggest (not that I doubt it per se)?


    As for being the best...that is a up to the individual to decide.

    Have been to several chat forums, I would say DP has it's strengths and weaknesses.

    Besides, for you to make such a statements accurately, you would have to have visited them ALL...and I very highly doubt you have done that.
    There are an incredible number of debate forums....hundreds I would guess...at least.
    Last edited by DA60; 08-30-14 at 08:55 AM.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Besides, for you to make such a statements accurately, you would have to have visited them ALL...and I very highly doubt you have done that.
    There are an incredible number of debate forums....hundreds I would guess...at least.
    How do you doubt it so highly?
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by DDD View Post
    How do you doubt it so highly?
    I highly doubt you could find, let alone spend enough time on to determine how 'good' they are; EVERY debate site on the entire net.

    There are probably hundreds, at least, in many, many different languages.

    Sorry, no way you can convince me you have visited and spent substantial time on ALL of them.


    Good day.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    I highly doubt you could find, let alone spend enough time on to determine how 'good' they are; EVERY debate site on the entire net.

    There are probably hundreds, at least, in many, many different languages.

    Sorry, no way you can convince me you have visited and spent substantial time on ALL of them.


    Good day.
    And a good day to you too.
    Quote Originally Posted by poweRob View Post
    Stats come out and always show life getting better. News makes money in making you think its not.
    The Republic of Dardania is the proper name for: http://www.debatepolitics.com/europe...ification.html

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    One - all the coup leaders had to do was wait until January, 2015 for the next scheduled election and then legally boot him out.
    If Yanky allowed elections. And even then, the elections would be a joke as anyone who tried to oppose him either mysteriously went missing, died or was arrested on trumped up charges like what happens to opposition groups in Russia.


    Two - the coup was blatantly illegal
    You know what's also illegal? Murder...as in murdering civilians with snipers on rooftops.


    Many people were killed in the coup, the Crimea was lost and this bloody civil war in the breakaway region is raging...and for what?
    Crimea and the "bloody civil war" is all on Russia.

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    Re: Ukraine accuses Russia of launching invasion

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    One - all the coup leaders had to do was wait until January, 2015 for the next scheduled election and then legally boot him out.
    It is obvious (imo) that they thought they would lose the legal election, so they staged a coup so that they could take over (or they were just monumentally stupid). Sure Yanukovych was very corrupt. They knew that he was extremely suspect when they elected him - he was a multiple convicted felon (when he was young). But all they had to do was wait a few months...it's not like he was murdering people or starving them to death.
    But the coup cost numerous deaths.

    Viktor Yanukovych - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    Two - the coup was blatantly illegal, yet Obama screamed bloody murder that the referendum in the Crimea was illegal and thus invalid. So why not the illegal coup in Kiev?


    The coup was carried out by thugs and/or idiots (imo) who were urged on - either directly or indirectly - by the West.

    And what did it accomplish?

    Many people were killed in the coup, the Crimea was lost and this bloody civil war in the breakaway region is raging...and for what?

    Because they couldn't wait a few months to legally boot their corrupt leader out?
    Yanko and his cronies were stealing from the Ukrainian treasury and was a puppet of the hated Putin. There would have been no free or fair elections, Putin would see to it and the people knew that.
    Ukrainians hate Russia and want to be free from its domination and Putin won't allow it. That is the short version. But Putin is in a pickle now, he can't give up or he will look weak and he can't win because the US and Europe won't stand for it. All the blustering about being a "major nuclear power" is pityful since he cannot use them without committing suicide.

    Washington React: FBI Helps Ukraine Recover Stolen Billions
    Last edited by iguanaman; 08-30-14 at 06:02 PM.

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