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Study: Military is ready for transgender troops

jmotivator said:
No, I can. I have seen the effect on the general public of the professional grievance merchants who first start by calling for equality and quickly shift to crushing opposing thought through legal and social means. Just recently we watched the national debate go from "should gays get married?" to lawsuits forcing people to participate in gay marriages against their will. Abortion began as a woman's right to privacy and today we have people's business being picketed and people being fired for opposing abortion. Obama was hailed as a shining moment in the closing of the racial divide, now you are a racist is you disagree with his policies. First comes the innocent appeal, then comes the hammer. It is the way of the new left.

Save the naive view of how this game is played for someone who doesn't know better.
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Funny, because the DADT repeal didn't do anything to harm military readiness or unit cohesion. You can spam a bunch of other topics if you like, but the question is specific. You claim you can show a harm to morale.

Do so.
 
jmotivator said:
I said participate. I am talking about the bakery that was sued because it didn't want to make a gay wedding cake.

Also, having the government crack down on you for your opinion is not as indicative of freedom as you seem to think....
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LMAO

Baking a cake is 'participating in a gay marriage?'

Do they also 'participate' in Bar Mitzvahs, graduations, Eid-al-Fitr (the celebration breaking Ramadan)?

And yeah....all those restaurant and theatre owners that set up seats in the back or denied entry period said the same thing...the govt was just crushing their 'opinions.'
 
Deuce said:
They said that about the DADT repeal.

http://www.palmcenter.org/files/One Year Out_0.pdf
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The Palm Center study is flawed for several reasons. First, an open call for survey participants is not random. Second, when a person's livelihood depends that they hold a given position you will find the participants will gravitate to that position regardless of their own beliefs.

Putting an ad in a military magazine requesting input is bad statistics.
 
Lursa said:
LMAO

Baking a cake is 'participating in a gay marriage?'

Do they also 'participate' in Bar Mitzvahs, graduations, Eid-al-Fitr (the celebration breaking Ramadan)?

And yeah....all those restaurant and theatre owners that set up seats in the back or denied entry period said the same thing...the govt was just crushing their 'opinions.'
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It's funny because you support my claim and dismiss it at the same time.
 
jmotivator said:
The Palm Center study is flawed for several reasons. First, an open call for survey participants is not random. Second, when a person's livelihood depends that they hold a given position you will find the participants will gravitate to that position regardless of their own beliefs.

Putting an ad in a military magazine requesting input is bad statistics.
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I'm in the military. It has basically become a nonissue. I was a military spouse when it happened. Guess how it affected morale for my husband or those he worked with? Oh, it didn't. Because it doesn't matter and those against it are just being fearmongers.
 
jmotivator said:
The Palm Center study is flawed for several reasons. First, an open call for survey participants is not random. Second, when a person's livelihood depends that they hold a given position you will find the participants will gravitate to that position regardless of their own beliefs.

Putting an ad in a military magazine requesting input is bad statistics.
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Still waiting on you to show us all that harm to morale. You said you can.
 
jmotivator said:
It's funny because you support my claim and dismiss it at the same time.
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Yes. I dismiss it. I dismiss the idea that a shop owner is harmed when they can't put up a "NO BLACKS" or "NO JEWS" sign on their door.
 
Deuce said:
Funny, because the DADT repeal didn't do anything to harm military readiness or unit cohesion. You can spam a bunch of other topics if you like, but the question is specific. You claim you can show a harm to morale.

Do so.
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While the 2012 view on repeal of DADT showed a reduction in those who see it as a negative impact on morale, it was still 1 in 5 soldiers who saw it as negative, and of those who thought it would have an impact, negative outpaced positive 4 to 1. There was, therefore, a negative impact on morale.

And they push this nonsense while morale in the military is already collapsing. Great time to experiment! :roll:
 
jmotivator said:
It's funny because you support my claim and dismiss it at the same time.
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I didnt see where the bakers were forced to be gay, Jewish, school graduates, or Muslims....you know, 'participating' by 'baking'.
 
jmotivator said:
While the 2012 view on repeal of DADT showed a reduction in those who see it as a negative impact on morale, it was still 1 in 5 soldiers who saw it as negative, and of those who thought it would have an impact, negative outpaced positive 4 to 1. There was, therefore, a negative impact on morale.

And they push this nonsense while morale in the military is already collapsing. Great time to experiment! :roll:
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Looks to me like there was little effect, and that the effects are diminishing quickly. Every metric moved towards "no problem." over the course of that year.

I think we'll make it.
 
Deuce said:
Yes. I dismiss it. I dismiss the idea that a shop owner is harmed when they can't put up a "NO BLACKS" or "NO JEWS" sign on their door.
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This is not the same thing at all and I think you know that. If a gay couple came into the bakery to buy baked goods they wouldn't be turned away.

This is a specific kind of cake that the baker was unwilling to make.

Let's say there is a very liberal bakery in a town where there is a mayoral election. The Baker really likes the Democratic candidate and supports them through the election cycle. On election day the Conservative Republican Tea Party candidate wins the election.. if the Tea Party candidate calls the bakery to order a cake for the inauguration, would you force the bakery to bake them a cake?
 
Deuce said:
Looks to me like there was little effect, and that the effects are diminishing quickly. Every metric moved towards "no problem." over the course of that year.

I think we'll make it.
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21% is a high number for bad morale, especially in the military that feeds off morale. And that is on top of the already collapsing morale in the armed forces.

Granted, a considerable amount of the low morale stems from having a buffoon as Commander in Chief.

And I am glad you think they will make it, given the historically low morale of the US military right now I say your optimism is unsupported.
 
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jmotivator said:
While the 2012 view on repeal of DADT showed a reduction in those who see it as a negative impact on morale, it was still 1 in 5 soldiers who saw it as negative, and of those who thought it would have an impact, negative outpaced positive 4 to 1. There was, therefore, a negative impact on morale.

And they push this nonsense while morale in the military is already collapsing. Great time to experiment! :roll:
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Just because some still wrongly think it is, doesn't mean it has had any effect in reality. And if it is just on those who believe it would, then it is really their own beliefs about it that are causing the problem, not the actual repeal.

Oh, and none of that "survey" found that it was due to the repeal of DADT.

A major concern that the survey identified was whether the Army would be able to keep top-notch leaders as it cuts its ranks, as well as fears it would be stretched too thin to meet unforeseen demands. - See more at: Army survey finds only one in four soldiers confident in branch’s future - The Boston Globe
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jmotivator said:
21% is a high number for bad morale, especially in the military that feeds off morale. And that is on top of the already collapsing morale in the armed forces.

Granted, a considerable amount of the low morale stems from having a buffoon as Commander in Chief.

And I am glad you think they will make it, given the historically low morale of the US military right now I say your optimism is unsupported.
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I'm going to call bull on it. I'm in the military, and you can't even notice there's a change. We had literally one person in a unit of 60 even present negative feelings on it and he was frustrated because of potential berthing issues, something we are not likely to face.

The majority of the problems are in these people's heads. They are seeing things that aren't actually happening. Or they are attributing single incidents to the entire repeal. Their bad attitude to begin with is almost certainly the issue.
 
roguenuke said:
Just because some still wrongly think it is, doesn't mean it has had any effect in reality. And if it is just on those who believe it would, then it is really their own beliefs about it that are causing the problem, not the actual repeal.
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Those polled were all active military, so it is their morale they are speaking to.

Oh, and none of that "survey" found that it was due to the repeal of DADT.
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The first survey showed that 1 in 5 people in the military see repeal of DADT effects morale. The second study was to show that this morale killer was being introduced while morale is at historic lows. I read the "military getting too soft" as the code for DADT repeal.
 
jmotivator said:
This is not the same thing at all and I think you know that. If a gay couple came into the bakery to buy baked goods they wouldn't be turned away.

This is a specific kind of cake that the baker was unwilling to make.

Let's say there is a very liberal bakery in a town where there is a mayoral election. The Baker really likes the Democratic candidate and supports them through the election cycle. On election day the Conservative Republican Tea Party candidate wins the election.. if the Tea Party candidate calls the bakery to order a cake for the inauguration, would you force the bakery to bake them a cake?
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Then there is absolutely no reason why they should be turned away to buy a wedding cake since no baker has to actually be there to serve the cake at the wedding. It is just a baked good. It holds no real special meaning, particularly if they picked it out of a frickin book or designs that were already being made. It is plain stupid to believe otherwise. Who cares what kind of celebration the cake is being eaten at? What if those other baked goods are being eaten at an orgy? Did the baker check to ensure that wasn't happening? If not, then it really isn't his/her concern where any cake is being eaten at. In fact, why would it be wrong for someone to order a wedding cake just because? Does the baker ask? Why should the baker care so long as the person is willing to pay the same amount for their cake?
 
roguenuke said:
I'm going to call bull on it. I'm in the military, and you can't even notice there's a change. We had literally one person in a unit of 60 even present negative feelings on it and he was frustrated because of potential berthing issues, something we are not likely to face.

The majority of the problems are in these people's heads. They are seeing things that aren't actually happening. Or they are attributing single incidents to the entire repeal. Their bad attitude to begin with is almost certainly the issue.
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So, are you shooting for a Yogi Bera-ism here? "They don't got low morale.. it's all in their heads." :lamo
 
roguenuke said:
Then there is absolutely no reason why they should be turned away to buy a wedding cake since no baker has to actually be there to serve the cake at the wedding. It is just a baked good. It holds no real special meaning, particularly if they picked it out of a frickin book or designs that were already being made. It is plain stupid to believe otherwise. Who cares what kind of celebration the cake is being eaten at? What if those other baked goods are being eaten at an orgy? Did the baker check to ensure that wasn't happening? If not, then it really isn't his/her concern where any cake is being eaten at. In fact, why would it be wrong for someone to order a wedding cake just because? Does the baker ask? Why should the baker care so long as the person is willing to pay the same amount for their cake?
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Why should people care about a great number of things people care about? The issue here is the freedom to care about something regardless of whether you agree with it.
 
jmotivator said:
Those polled were all active military, so it is their morale they are speaking to.

The first survey showed that 1 in 5 people in the military see repeal of DADT effects morale. The second study was to show that this morale killer was being introduced while morale is at historic lows. I read the "military getting too soft" as the code for DADT repeal.
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My husband was active duty til April of this year. I have 10 years of active duty service. Plus, in case you are unaware, we actually go out with those active duty troops. In fact, I'm the only one out of the newly selected reserve chiefs in my area that hasn't been on some sort of active duty in the last year. One of the guys just got back from Afghanistan this past spring, and the other girl who made it from this area is in Africa. It is called IA duty.

You are reading things into it, things you want it to say. People are always saying the military is getting too soft. Right before I came in or right after I went through boot camp, they had stress cards. You could raise your stress card and the RDCs couldn't say or do anything else too you. I'd say that is a bit too soft on people. Simply allowing homosexuals to serve openly has nothing to do with how soft or hard the military is. It doesn't change the demeanor of those who are already serving. We knew who they were. And a person's sexuality in no way makes them whiny. We had plenty of whiny men and women who are completely straight. I didn't know personally any gay guys or gals that were whiny.
 
jmotivator said:
So, are you shooting for a Yogi Bera-ism here? "They don't got low morale.. it's all in their heads." :lamo
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In this case, it is. They are causing their own issues because those personnel are the ones who have the issues. They need to stop being jerkwads and realize that other troops' sexuality has absolutely no real affect on them unless they allow it to.
 
jmotivator said:
Why should people care about a great number of things people care about? The issue here is the freedom to care about something regardless of whether you agree with it.
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A freedom that those who operate open to the public businesses do not have due to public accommodation laws. Our freedoms are restricted by the rights and freedoms of others. It is part of living in a society, living with other people. If they want to discriminate and be able to decide exactly who they will and won't sell products to, they can have their business private. They can take referrals only. That is their choice.
 
roguenuke said:
A freedom that those who operate open to the public businesses do not have due to public accommodation laws. Our freedoms are restricted by the rights and freedoms of others. It is part of living in a society, living with other people. If they want to discriminate and be able to decide exactly who they will and won't sell products to, they can have their business private. They can take referrals only. That is their choice.
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I go back to the question I asked: Would you force a baker to bake a cake for a Tea Party group when the baker objects to everything the tea party stands for? Would you require that the baker submit a quarterly report to the government of all sales to ensure they properly served the Tea Party residents? Would you send the bakery staff to rehab to cure them of their objection to the Tea Party?
 
roguenuke said:
My husband was active duty til April of this year. I have 10 years of active duty service. Plus, in case you are unaware, we actually go out with those active duty troops. In fact, I'm the only one out of the newly selected reserve chiefs in my area that hasn't been on some sort of active duty in the last year. One of the guys just got back from Afghanistan this past spring, and the other girl who made it from this area is in Africa. It is called IA duty.

You are reading things into it, things you want it to say. People are always saying the military is getting too soft. Right before I came in or right after I went through boot camp, they had stress cards. You could raise your stress card and the RDCs couldn't say or do anything else too you. I'd say that is a bit too soft on people. Simply allowing homosexuals to serve openly has nothing to do with how soft or hard the military is. It doesn't change the demeanor of those who are already serving. We knew who they were. And a person's sexuality in no way makes them whiny. We had plenty of whiny men and women who are completely straight. I didn't know personally any gay guys or gals that were whiny.
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This goes back to the famous old claim: "I can't believe Nixon won, nobody I know voted for him."

Given that the Military is now geared towards reprimanding those who object to the repeal I would guess there are a lot of people you know in the military who aren;t willing to tell you what they really think, and your personal experience doesn't come close to the 17,000 service men and women surveyed.
 
jmotivator said:
Let's say there is a very liberal bakery in a town where there is a mayoral election. The Baker really likes the Democratic candidate and supports them through the election cycle. On election day the Conservative Republican Tea Party candidate wins the election.. if the Tea Party candidate calls the bakery to order a cake for the inauguration, would you force the bakery to bake them a cake?
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Bake the cake, yes. Customize it with Congratulations "X"?- no.

It would be the same with a black owned T-shirt shop:
-White customer wants to buy a T-shirt? Sell it to him
-White customer want them to print "rebel pride" T-shirts with CSA battle flag? Contract declined, go somewhere else to print that.

roguenuke said:
Then there is absolutely no reason why they should be turned away to buy a wedding cake since no baker has to actually be there to serve the cake at the wedding. It is just a baked good. It holds no real special meaning, particularly if they picked it out of a frickin book or designs that were already being made.
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I agree, they should be sold a cake. The owner, however, does not need to customize it with "Betty and Sue are married" or "South is going to rise again" or "Jesus is Lord and Savior".
 
Cryptic said:
Bake the cake, yes. Customize it with Congratulations "X"?- no.
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Which the baker actually offered to do.

It would be the same with a black owned T-shirt shop:
-White customer wants to buy a T-shirt? Sell it to him
-White customer want them to print "rebel pride" T-shirts with CSA battle flag? Contract declined, go somewhere else to print that.
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Well, obviously people here think shop owners should be required to design anything the customer wants.

I agree, they should be sold a cake. The owner, however, does not need to customize it with "Betty and Sue are married" or "South is going to rise again" or "Jesus is Lord and Savior".
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I still don't know why anyone would demand someone bake them a cake. You are guaranteed that their heart won't be in it, and have to wonder if something else of theirs might be... ;)
 
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