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Thread: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732]

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    Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

    Quote Originally Posted by JC_CT View Post
    "The eye witness"? There are numerous eye witnesses. The fact that they saw/heard shots being fired with Brown's back turned and mistakenly concluded that he was hit does not discredit their accounts. It's a perfectly natural conclusion to go from "shots fired at someone" to "someone was shot."

    Has anyone mentioned the fact that Dorian Johnson's account that Brown "was struck in the chest or upper region [by the first shot in the car] because I saw blood splatter down his side, his right area" is completely consistent with a number of the wounds shown on the autopsy sketch? Or does the fact that Johnson had committed a petty theft a few years ago and gave police a false age and slightly different first name mean that we throw out his entire testimony, in spite of evidence that supports it?
    Nice way to spin.

    Without the exact statements from the witness its speculation on what they are really trying to convey.

    Your statement of "It's a perfectly natural conclusion to go from "shots fired at someone" to "someone was shot.". only improves my statement that witness statements need to be supported by other evidence. With what has been released the "shot in the back" statement does not hold up.

    I for one am not throwing out anything. I have stated one should wait till the investigation is done. ALL of the evidence needs to be looked at to determine what happened.

    So many times some rush to judgement. Some even try to play the race card (white cop / black teenager).

    It was a tragic event. Hopefully the investigation will be done that the results are not questioned. But they will be, no matter the outcome.

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    Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

    Quote Originally Posted by ashurbanipal View Post
    I have somehow missed the detail about the trajectory; I though they had only released the placement of the wounds. Do you have a link for that?

    If this is correct, unless Darren Wilson is 8 feet tall or taller, it would appear almost certain that the fatal shot would have been fired when Brown was face down on the ground. The trajectory of the other bullet to enter his head suggests that either Brown was charging in an almost fully-bent-over position, or was kneeling when shot from above. If the above trajectory is correct, it looks like probably the latter.
    See the video near the end of the conference from 32:00 on.


    Note Parcells gesture indicating the angle of trajectory.
    Last edited by Buck Ewer; 08-29-14 at 12:28 PM.

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    Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

    Excon ... I noticed you neglected to address this post of mine about the anatomy of the arm and the autopsy diagram.
    I would be interested in what you may have to say about it.
    I will re-post it for convenience;


    BTW I thought of something from anatomy classes I took many years ago...
    When a pathologist or any anatomist says "front" they are usually referring to the "anterior" or front view as in the anatomical chart they use, with the hands open, thumbs out and the palms facing in the same direction as the face. As opposed to the posterior chart showing the back view of the same un-natural gesture.
    Well guess what...People don't walk with their hands facing that way. The normal position for the hand in a walk is with the thumbs at the hips and the palms facing back. The forearms and upper arms also face back when standing or in a normal gait.
    The figure in the chart has it's arms rotated 180 degrees at the shoulder from a normal relaxed position with the thumbs pointed away from the hips.
    When Baden described all the shots as coming from the front he was referring to the front, (anterior) view of the anatomical chart and not necessarily to the animated orientation of a living, walking subject.
    For the graze wounds on Browns fore arm, upper arm and thumb palm to be hit from the front Brown would have to assume the un-natural 180 degree arm rotation of the anatomical chart... Or else, a hands up / surrender posture.
    Stand in front of a mirror and check it out.
    Or look at this:
    images (4).jpgimages (5).jpg
    Walking man front view..............Autopsy chart front and rear view[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by Buck Ewer; 08-29-14 at 12:49 PM.

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    Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

    Quote Originally Posted by mike2810 View Post
    Nice way to spin.

    Without the exact statements from the witness its speculation on what they are really trying to convey.

    Your statement of "It's a perfectly natural conclusion to go from "shots fired at someone" to "someone was shot.". only improves my statement that witness statements need to be supported by other evidence. With what has been released the "shot in the back" statement does not hold up.

    I for one am not throwing out anything. I have stated one should wait till the investigation is done. ALL of the evidence needs to be looked at to determine what happened.

    So many times some rush to judgement. Some even try to play the race card (white cop / black teenager).

    It was a tragic event. Hopefully the investigation will be done that the results are not questioned. But they will be, no matter the outcome.
    I suppose you could consider it spin to assume that five different witnesses, who have given accounts that have a degree of inconsistency within the details (as expected with any eyewitness account) but are unanimous that Brown did not charge at Wilson, are telling the truth until proven otherwise instead of assuming that they are lying until proven otherwise.

    Other than that, I agree with everything you say. This is a court of public opinion, not a court of law, and nobody (I hope) is denying that Wilson should get his day in court and that all of the available evidence (of which I am sure that much, much more exists than has been made public) should be considered.

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    re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732]

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Ewer View Post
    It's a little like watching old episodes of Perry Mason or The Defenders isn't it?
    It is. But where is Della Street?

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    re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732]

    Quote Originally Posted by tres borrachos View Post
    It is. But where is Della Street?
    Wouldn't you like to know.
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    She was hot ...and smart.

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    re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732]

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Ewer View Post
    Wouldn't you like to know.
    download (1).jpg
    She was hot ...and smart.
    She was indeed!

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    Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

    And that has little to do with the physical evidence. Either it's there or it's not.

    I dont believe it's all been released.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Buck Ewer View Post
    Excon ... I noticed you neglected to address this post of mine about the anatomy of the arm and the autopsy diagram.
    I would be interested in what you may have to say about it.
    I will re-post it for convenience;


    BTW I thought of something from anatomy classes I took many years ago...
    When a pathologist or any anatomist says "front" they are usually referring to the "anterior" or front view as in the anatomical chart they use, with the hands open, thumbs out and the palms facing in the same direction as the face. As opposed to the posterior chart showing the back view of the same un-natural gesture.
    Well guess what...People don't walk with their hands facing that way. The normal position for the hand in a walk is with the thumbs at the hips and the palms facing back. The forearms and upper arms also face back when standing or in a normal gait.
    The figure in the chart has it's arms rotated 180 degrees at the shoulder from a normal relaxed position with the thumbs pointed away from the hips.
    When Baden described all the shots as coming from the front he was referring to the front, (anterior) view of the anatomical chart and not necessarily to the animated orientation of a living, walking subject.
    For the graze wounds on Browns fore arm, upper arm and thumb palm to be hit from the front Brown would have to assume the un-natural 180 degree arm rotation of the anatomical chart... Or else, a hands up / surrender posture.
    Stand in front of a mirror and check it out.
    Or look at this:
    [ATTACH=CONFIG]67172118[ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]67172119[ATTACH]
    Walking man front view..............Autopsy chart front and rear view
    "... but they're from the front." Not in the front.
    And is why it was explained that they could have been received moving forwards or backwards, but not in facing away from.


    Which is also why the movement of the arm was explained. Such a shot could appear to have come from the back when it actually came from the front.





    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by JC_CT View Post
    but when you take into consideration that the police said that Wilson fired at them while they were running away
    You haven't provided the link to this. And if the report exists, you are not relaying it accurately at this time, as I believe you earlier indicated it is an anonymously confirmed report.
    So under those condition we must accept the Officer's hearsay account, and the supposedly 12 accounts that back it up, because those were also anomalously confirmed by multiple Official sources as being accurate.
    Well since you haven't provided a link, let me do it.

    It is as I thought. Unconfirmed sources.

    [...]

    The accounts of what witnesses have told local and federal law enforcement authorities come from some of those witnesses themselves, law enforcement authorities and others in Ferguson. Many spoke on the condition of anonymity because they did not want to be identified discussing a continuing investigation.

    [...]

    As Officer Wilson got out of his car, the men were running away. The officer fired his weapon but did not hit anyone, according to law enforcement officials.

    [...]

    The F.B.I., Mr. Bosley said, pressed Mr. Johnson to say how high Mr. Brown’s hands were. Mr. Johnson said that his hands were not that high, and that one was lower than the other, because he appeared to be “favoring it,” the lawyer said.

    [...]

    Shooting Accounts Differ as Holder Schedules Visit to Ferguson
    Darian really likes changing his story.
    “The law is reason, free from passion.”
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    (≚ᄌ≚)

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    re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732]

    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    He answered in reply to a question. You have no idea when he found that out.
    Secondly, back to what is reported. If it is as reported, he did not see it all. He had to invest time to see what was going on.

    Nor have you addressed his willingness to lie. Or have you forgot he tweeted that too?


    What I have is a known untruth as told by a supposed witness.
    I don't think Freeman lied, I think he was mistaken about a detail that would be very difficult for someone at a distance to know with any accuracy, unlike the part that matters most, which is what happened when Brown turned around.

    However, we don't know if it was an "untruth" or an honest mistake of fact. I will take the position that he is telling the truth of what he thinks he saw, until evidence strongly suggests otherwise. You can take the opposite position, and while I think it's absurd, I can't argue with it because we don't know. I can certainly argue your assertion that you know for sure that he was tainted and lied and didn't just make an honest mistake.

    Everyone is a supposed witness, since we have no video of anyone watching what happened. He tweeted out that he saw it happen, within a minute or two of the time it happened. The entirety of the tweets he made that day do suggest that he did not see the altercation at the police vehicle, and he never claims to have seen that part. The author of the article you quoted was most certainly not trying to claim that Freeman didn't see the shots that ultimately ended his life.



    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    You haven't provided the link to this. And if the report exists, you are not relaying it accurately at this time, as I believe you earlier indicated it is an anonymously confirmed report.
    So under those condition we must accept the Officer's hearsay account, and the supposedly 12 accounts that back it up, because those were also anomalously confirmed by multiple Official sources as being accurate.
    Your assertion that I have not provided a link to this is 100% false. Furthermore, you are trying to compare a single reporter from a local news outlet that has been on FMLA for six months and was tweeting personally, who later tweeted that her prior tweets did not meet the standards for publication, with The New York Times, the third-largest newspaper in the country and the winner of 112 Pulitzer Prizes. And might I remind you that you have nobody from the police department stating on the record that Wilson ever said that Brown charged him, at least not that I have seen. Provide links if there is someone with authority involved in the investigation that is on the record saying that Brown charged Wilson, and I will retract this.

    Quote Originally Posted by JC_CT View Post
    Sure, when we ignore the fact that it fits perfectly with the five eyewitnesses and, as reported by the New York Times nine days ago with no denial whatsoever from local law enforcement or anyone involved with the investigation, WHAT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS SAID HAPPENED, which is that shots were fired as the two men were running away from Wilson (and ignore the fact we will, because we already determined they were liars because no shots entered Brown's body from the back and therefore it can be deduced with certainty that no shots were fired at Brown's back, and furthermore we can then deduce that all the witnesses, and I suppose the local law enforcement officials now too, must be deemed to be liars)...

    then it is the next most logical scenario.

    Link:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/20/us...ml?ref=us&_r=1


    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post

    Not a fact.
    Fact - Dr.Baden said all the shots were from the front.
    Showing that you too do not understand what has been said.
    I agree with you that Dr. Baden didn't say that the arm graze could have been from a shot from behind, that is my mistake. Parcells said it with Dr. Baden standing at his side. It does seem likely that all of the bullets that hit Brown could have been fired from the front though. But, as I have said repeatedly, I will not throw out five different eyewitness testimonies because they mistakenly believed that the shots fired from behind hit Brown instead of missing him, and neither will the grand jury and neither would a trial jury if it gets there.



    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    Not! And frankly all you are doing is whining.
    Ok.



    Quote Originally Posted by Excon View Post
    If they are making erroneous conclusions or deliberately lying their account is not trustworthy. Period. And yes it is scraped unless what they say is verifiable from another untainted account.
    But what you do not do is assemble tainted accounts and say, see they all match. That has no weight and is just silly.
    Links?

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