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Thread: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732]

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    Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    If Brown was laying on the ground, all the shots will have to be explained and they all entered the front of his body, which would have been impossible if he were lying down.
    The witness accounts all agree that he was falling as he was being shot. The first three while still upright and the last two near or on the street.
    It makes sense when you look at the trajectory of the last two wounds to his head.
    The eye socket wound entered at his eye brow, re-entered and exited at his jaw and entered again just above his collarbone
    He may not have been hit by all five in the last group . The pathologist explained early in the press conference that some of the other wounds may have been re-entry wounds as well.

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    Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I am going off on a limb here. Turle Dove may be able to flesh this out better, and I might just be plain wrong:

    Administratively, Wilson might have to prove that the shooting was justified. If he can't, then he can get fired etc. If the shooting was not justified, then it might also be a crime.

    Technically, the burden of proof is on the proscecutor to prove that not only was the shooting not justified, but that Wilson is also guilty of a criminal act.

    But.... many jurors may well presume that if Wilson cant show the shooting was justified administratively, then he is automatically guilty of a crime. They may even presume and apply that presumption despite judges instructions to the contrary.


    there is a world of difference between an IA investigation, and a criminal prosecution

    and Wilson never has to prove the shooting was anything.....

    The internal affairs department will investigate and determine whether or not the shooting was "justified" in their eyes

    He can be fired....put on desk duty....suspended with or without pay.....

    There are a lot of things the IA dept can recommend....usually it is up to the chief and a board the ultimate action taken upon the officer
    “Most of the shadows of this life are caused by standing in one's own sunshine.”

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    Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Mason66 View Post
    If the witnesses are saying Brown had his arms up and then he was shot, they can't be telling the truth.

    The entry wounds would have been on the back of his arms and not the front.
    They say he had his arms up when he turned around. He probably lowered his arms in a defensive posture as he realized that there were more shots to come.

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    Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    there is a world of difference between an IA investigation, and a criminal prosecution
    Yes, I am aware of that. I have adminsitratrively defended officers accused of wrong doing - relatively minor things. They were not facing criminal charges, but they were under threat of being fired.
    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    t
    and Wilson never has to prove the shooting was anything.....
    No, you could well be wrong at the adminstrative level.

    In my experience in law enforcement (granted, it was long time ago), I think the officer would be expected to justify the shooting at the administrative level. For lesser offenses that I handled, the burden was generally on IA to show the officer did something wrong.

    And if Wilson is fired adminsitratively for the shooting, then this is going to impact a possible criminal trial- even if the proscecutor must show a crime was commited. In short, the jury may well think: If he was fired for it (admin), then he must also be guilty of a criminal charge.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 08-26-14 at 06:39 PM.

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    Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

    Quote Originally Posted by gdgyva View Post
    but you are forgetting one important fact

    Wilson doesnt have to prove innocence

    the prosecution has to prove guilt

    too many have jumped to conclusions on both sides of the equation

    i still say we dont know a quarter of the "facts" in the case
    On the other hand, the Grand Jury doesn't have to decide if Wilson is guilty or if the witnesses are lying.
    They only have to find that there is reasonable doubt that this is a justified homicide to recommend an indictment.

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    re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenton View Post
    Does having an " open mind " mean that I have to ignore the constraints of what is humanly possible ?

    Or the constraints of the space time continuum ?

    Because there was not enough time for him to stop, turn around, surrender and drop to his knees. You know this
    How do you know that there was not enough time for Brown to stop and turn?
    "Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers" - Voltaire
    "There is nothing noble in being superior to your fellow men. True nobility lies in being superior to your former self" -Hemingway

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    Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

    Quote Originally Posted by shrubnose View Post
    So basically you're a second-hand ear-witness .
    OK, I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    You have no empirical evidence backing up your false assertion. You are simply conjecturing based on a whim...
    Quote Originally Posted by Hawkeye10 View Post
    Or maybe "We now understand why women provoke men into hitting them".
    Quote Originally Posted by American View Post
    . Losing insurance does not mean losing healthcare. .

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    re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732]

    Quote Originally Posted by Fearandloathing View Post
    I wonder if any of those "shots" heard on the recording is an echo?

    I once covered a police shooting incident in Vancouver where a video tape recorded 39 shots. There were no hits.

    An independent examiner found that there were 9 shell casings accounted for and eleven bullets from the assigned amount that were missing, two were later determined to have been expended in a test fire on the range.

    I do not ay this is the case here, in fact I here several distinct shots.

    In any event, what this will do is further the divide between the citizens and the police, further cast doubt on their integrity seriously harking their ability to serve and protect.

    They so need an independent investigation, all that need happen is the State Attorney general name a good judge, preferably half white and be done with it.
    To be honest with you I'm not sure if I hear five or four shots in the second grouping . Everyone else says they hear five...and there are a lot of echos that tend to confuse how many reports are actually fired in both groups.
    Any decent forensic sound engineer should be able to tell with a high degree of certainty exactly how many shots were fired when that recording is accurately filtered, graphed and analyzed.
    Even when there is a lot of audio compression in a recording ( as there often is in digital recording) the amplitude of the original report will still be slightly higher than the subsequent echos. The confusion comes when echos from previous shots coincide with subsequent reports and echos clouding their exact amplitude.
    The quality of the recording is high with very little background noise so I am confident we will soon find out exactly how many shots were fired.

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    Re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I agree, in most cases, an officer should be presumed credible unless there reasons to believe otherwise. At the same time, the more "could haves / might haves" in the claim, even an officer's claim, the more need for additional physical evidence.

    In this case, there seems to be string of "could haves":
    -he could have initiated an attack on me (in car)
    -non lethal force might not have stopped him
    -he could have then initiated one or more to the death banzai charges
    -he could be incredibly dangerous, even when wounded
    -he could have closed the distance seperating us before I could use other options besides lethal force

    I can give the officer 1 or more "could haves". But, it appears he is asking for 5. To me, this makes the officer's claim extraordinary- even given the fact that Brown is not a "Gentle Giant" and was probably pumped up after "slapping down" the clerk.

    Who has the burden of proof? Must Wilson show that the shooting was jusified? If so, I think there are too many "could haves" for him to prove the shooting was justified by his word alone. Wilson must change some "could haves" into "probably dids" with physical evidence. I dont think he can do this.
    Your last question may be the most important one. It is up to the State to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Officer Wilson used force that was not justified under the circumstances. Even when video evidence is available, such as in the Rodney King incident, juries are not inclined to convict officers if their evidence is reasonable under evaluation.
    Last edited by CanadaJohn; 08-26-14 at 07:08 PM.
    "Liberals claim to want to give a hearing to other views, but then are shocked and offended to discover that there are other views." William F. Buckley Jr.

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    re: Attorney: New audio reveals pause in gunfire when Michael Brown was shot[W:72,732]

    Quote Originally Posted by opendebate View Post
    How do you know that there was not enough time for Brown to stop and turn?
    He doesn't.
    A basketball player can stop and turn a 180 in about a tenth of a second. There is a lot more time than that in that pause.

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