• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

Suicide by police isn't something that will make me critical of officers in question.

Same. He was asking to be shot. It's not like he was walking down the street unarmed or anything.
 
21 foot rule. If you're close enough to use a taser, he's close enough to cause serious harm with a knife, up to and including death.

Knives are weapons.

Damn right.

So are fists.

You are educated.
 
What is wrong with some more advanced training with a combination of Traser first, Shoot second?

What is wrong with having more training is asking nut jobs questions to get them thinking more rationally?

The training is not there. It is not about Never killing anyone. It is about TRYING to avoid death. Tasers are a step in avoiding deaths.
Rule number one is to eliminate the threat. It's stupid to ask cops to jeopardize their lives just so you feel better.
 
Rule number one is to eliminate the threat. It's stupid to ask cops to jeopardize their lives just so you feel better.

Well done.
 
It may sound like that to you because you do not wish to understand the situation as I presented it and then discuss it from there.

So in your world it just perfectly normal to not examine the facts, make huge leaps in judgement and arrive at the conclusion you wish regardless of the facts?

Now that's unbelievable.

The statement I made about you is ludicrous but no more so than your summation of my post.

Enjoy your evening.

And it seems I still can't get you to just admit that his actions were criminal, and were the cause of his own death.

Besides, it would appear you have left out some of the details of that situation...... shame on you.
 
What is wrong with some more advanced training with a combination of Traser first, Shoot second?

What is wrong with having more training is asking nut jobs questions to get them thinking more rationally?

The training is not there. It is not about Never killing anyone. It is about TRYING to avoid death. Tasers are a step in avoiding deaths.

Time... What don't you get about it?

This isn't TV and movies, people don't stand around talking for 10 minutes for the "drama" of it, and life doesn't slow down to slo-mo while someone is advancing on you at a fast pace with a weapon and the intent to cause harm or kill you.

If multiple officers have the TIME to COORDINATE for one to use taser while others have weapons drawn, and ensure they are positioned so that this tactic will go down without causing harm to themselves, then sure. That usually isn't going to be the case unless its a TV movie drama scene.
 
And it seems I still can't get you to just admit that his actions were criminal, and were the cause of his own death.

Besides, it would appear you have left out some of the details of that situation...... shame on you.
You can't get me? :shock: are we in grade 2?

oh well, let's keep it on your level for a minute: yes for that you would need a rational argument not emotional pontification

shame on me, are you serious...:lol:

don't win many debates eh?
 
Time... What don't you get about it?

This isn't TV and movies, people don't stand around talking for 10 minutes for the "drama" of it, and life doesn't slow down to slo-mo while someone is advancing on you at a fast pace with a weapon and the intent to cause harm or kill you.

If multiple officers have the TIME to COORDINATE for one to use taser while others have weapons drawn, and ensure they are positioned so that this tactic will go down without causing harm to themselves, then sure. That usually isn't going to be the case unless its a TV movie drama scene.

Law enforcement injuries reduced 86% Arrestee injuries reduced 79%

Science and Medical



TASER® Benefits for Law Enforcement


"Despite the Taser’s increasing popularity among police agencies, questions have been raised concerning the weapon’s use and effectiveness as well as its potential to cause serious injury or death. This article examines all Taser deployments by the New York City Police Department from 2002 to 2005 ( N = 375) and uses two multivariate approaches—logistic regression and chi-square automatic interaction detection—to identify predictors of Taser effectiveness, measured as continued suspect resistance and officer satisfaction. Findings indicate that several factors are associated with reduced effectiveness, including suspect body weight (more than 200 pounds), drug and alcohol use, physical violence, and close distance (3 feet or less) between the officer and the suspect. Although this study represents a preliminary effort at identifying predictors of Taser effectiveness, there are clear training and policy implications for police departments. "

The Impact of the Taser on Suspect Resistance: Identifying Predictors of Effectiveness


"The Taser fires two small dart-like electrodes, which stay connected to the main unit by conductive wire as they are propelled by small compressed nitrogen charges.[15][16] The air cartridge contains a pair of electrodes and propellant for a single shot and is replaced after each use. There are a number of cartridges designated by range, with the maximum at 35 feet (10.6 m).[16] Cartridges available to non-law enforcement consumers are limited to 15 feet (4.5 m).[17] The electrodes are pointed to penetrate clothing and barbed to prevent removal once in place. Earlier Taser models had difficulty in penetrating thick clothing, but newer versions (X26, C2) use a "shaped pulse" that increases effectiveness in the presence of barriers.[18]

Tasers also provide a safety benefit to police officers as they have a greater deployment range than batons, pepper spray or empty hand techniques. This allows police to maintain a safe distance. A study of use-of-force incidents by the Calgary Police Service conducted by the Canadian Police Research Centre found that the use of Tasers resulted in fewer injuries than the use of batons or empty hand techniques. Only pepper spray was found to be a safer intervention option.[19]"

Taser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



"Tasers and other stun guns have proved effective in limiting injuries to police and suspects, but law enforcement needs to guard against potential abuse by officers who overly rely on such tools, a three-year study by University of South Carolina researchers found.

The findings are included in one of the largest studies conducted into police use of force and injuries that result from stun guns, pepper spray, batons and firearms. The study, funded by a $650,000 U.S. Justice Department grant, comes at a time when more than 11,500 police agencies use Tasers to control suspects.

Geoff Alpert, a USC criminology professor and principal investigator for the study, said researchers found electrical stun devices and pepper spray clearly reduce the likelihood of injuries to officers and suspects. "

http://www.postandcourier.com/article/20090708/PC1602/307089904







//
 
Last edited:
How long does it take to fire a taser? Maybe there should be a rule that any police officer should have his taser drawn when going to a knife report. A taser can go 16 Feet.

Before a policeman kills someone, there should be a duty to at least attempt to taser the individual

Many police are trained to go for the kill with little provocation. The training should be improved to include non-lethal attempts to subdue a belligerent individual.

Some branches of Aiklido teach protecting oneself, while discharging anger from the individual. "Why are you upset?" "Why are you angry?" Get the guy talking, working out his anger or fears.


When a policeman is asked, "Why did you use lethal force on this individual?"

The Officer should be able to explain how he tried to use a taser at first.


//



If a guy has a knife in his hand...he is a lethal threat. Taser isn't going to cut it. Sorry. Real life isn't a movie. Tasers don't automatically knock people out.

All the officer needs to explain is how he killed someone wielding a knife.
 
If a guy has a knife in his hand...he is a lethal threat. Taser isn't going to cut it. Sorry. Real life isn't a movie. Tasers don't automatically knock people out.

All the officer needs to explain is how he killed someone wielding a knife.


I watched the video of this shooting by police on CNN. Two police approaching the man with a knife. The man was seemingly staggering drunk. There did not seem to be any reason that police could not have fired a taser, or pepper spray. There was time to use non-lethal means of subduing the man with the knife. They were in an open street, in front of the store.

If the taser did not work, there was plenty of time and room to fire nine shots. The man with the knife stopped advancing toward the passenger-side officer, after the first shot. The police seemed intent on relying on their pistols as the sole means of reasoning with this obviously irrational individual.



//
 
Last edited:
I watched the video of this shooting by police on CNN. Two police approaching the man with a knife. The man was seemingly staggering drunk. There did not seem to be any reason that police could not have fired a taser, or pepper spray. There was time to use non-lethal means of subduing the man with the knife. They were in an open street, in front of the store.

If the taser did not work, there was plenty of time and room to fire nine shots. The man with the knife stopped advancing toward the passenger-side officer, after the first shot. The police seemed intent on relying on their pistols as the sole means of reasoning with this obviously irrational individual.



//

Again...if he had a knife, it is dangerous to assume that the taser is going to work. Knives can kill just like guns can.

I watched the video. I saw what happened. I find it hard to pity a guy wielding a knife.
 
Again...if he had a knife, it is dangerous to assume that the taser is going to work. Knives can kill just like guns can.

I watched the video. I saw what happened. I find it hard to pity a guy wielding a knife.


The Taser Might have worked. If the taser had been used, before the man with the knife was shot, and it did not work, there would be much less of a question about whether the police shooting was justified. Ther is enough time, from when the police got out of the patrol car, to fire a taser.

If time was a problem, there are tasers mounted on close combat rifles.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tas...8%2Ftaser-intl-x-rail-mounting-system;640;360


Ghost Recon: Future Soldier - Internet Movie Firearms Database - Guns in Movies, TV and Video Games




//
 
Last edited:
Tasers can be mounted on pump shot guns:


First off, I can't stop watching Sons of Guns.

I find Will to be a bit of a jerk and a mean boss, but his gunsmith guys are fascinating. I don't like that the show portrays the guys as the stereotypes that liberals see as tattooed rednecks either, but I still can't stop watching. I like Kris and Flem and Vince.

The gun aspect is very interesting although it seems like many times Red Jacket is just copying ideas already done by others (Magpul's flashlight box/gun as an example).

I'm curious if anyone else noticed something during last night's episode where they attached a Taser to a shotgun?

I'm a bit familiar with Tasers. When they fired the Taser at Kris, it was shown in super slow motion. The bottom prong struck Kris in the neck and the top prong missed him completely and went between his head and Will's head. The prong dang near could have hit Will right in they eye!

Geez, that was a lousy shot from the Taser, even with it mounted beneath the shotgun.

The electrical discharge from the Taser needs both leads in the subject to be effective. Kris must not have received a shock by that firing of the Taser. They only showed his legs tensed and they didn't show his face. Usually when someone gets Tasered, their clenched teeth and face of agony is whats visually interesting.

The Taser has a red laser that shows where it's aimed and, even mounted below the shotgun, it should have been much easier from the proper distance to hit the right area on Kris' back. That area would have been high in his back and low in his back with the two prongs, not in his neck and then missing with the second prong.

I have heard of Tasers being mounted on orange stocked Mossberg less lethal shotguns modified to only fire beanbags rounds. The idea of pointing a standard shotgun (capable of firing live shells) at a subject for Tasering violates the rule of never point a weapon at something you don't intend to destroy.

"Oops, I just meant to Taser him, but I got confused in all the excitement and pulled the shotgun trigger by accident."

Anyway, anyone else notice that the Taser leads completely missed poor Kris?

Sons of Guns and the Taser/Shotgun Combo



Taser on Pump Shotgun: Video

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ua9_ayDMyE



Tasers can be used first, without slowing down [police response time, if the best equipment is available, and team work is trained for the officers in the field.


The X-Rep Taser can go 100 ft.

https://www.google.com/search?q=tas...%2Ftaser-xrep-up-close-and-pricing%2F;900;443

"consultant to the U.S. Department of Defense.

That's where the Extended Range Electronic Projectile, or XREP, comes in. Unlike Taser's conventional stun gun, which shoots tethered probes up to 35 feet to deliver an incapacitating jolt, the company's new XREP is a 12-gauge wireless projectile that can be fired up to 100 feet from any pump-action shotgun. It sails through the air like a normal slug yet induces muscle paralysis on impact. "It takes everything that's a Taser and puts it in a slug-like device," Heal says.

Logistically, the biggest engineering challenge was miniaturization. With a Taser, two probes attach to the assailant, arcing up to 50,000 volts of electricity, enough to penetrate clothing. The XREP, on the other hand, uses just 500 volts to allow for smaller circuitry. Instead of arcing the current, it sends it directly into the body via barbed electrodes that pierce the skin. Lead XREP engineer Mark Hanchett says the key isn't so much the voltage but the waveform. The current, shaped to mimic electrical signals in the body, jams the nervous system. "The waveform is the secret sauce," he says."




http://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2010-03/shock-bullet


Here are Taser Cartridges with up to 35 Foot wires:

http://www.taser.com/products/law-enforcement/taser-cartridges


How many departments have the taser training laptop?
http://www.taser.com/products/law-enforcement/tasertrainer





//
 
Last edited:
The Taser Might have worked.
//

And the Officer MIGHT have got stabbed up trying to use it too.

But instead the Officer is alive and unharmed and the knife wielding "suicide by cop" guy is deceased.....good.
 
And the Officer MIGHT have got stabbed up trying to use it too.

But instead the Officer is alive and unharmed and the knife wielding "suicide by cop" guy is deceased.....good.

Bingo: might.

I don't want to leave my life up to might. I don't expect the police to do the same.
 


Just information on how a taser isn't always great.
 
Again...if he had a knife, it is dangerous to assume that the taser is going to work. Knives can kill just like guns can.

.

I don't care. It is there job to face danger and to use non-lethal force as much as possible.

I watched the video. I saw what happened. I find it hard to pity a guy wielding a knife

I am not sure I pity the guy either but I certainly blame the cops for using lethal force when it was not immediately necessary... and then the douche bag cop shouting at people to get back... and then further back... and then further and further back? That cop was retarded and hopped up on power.
 
I don't care. It is there job to face danger and to use non-lethal force as much as possible.

It isn't there job to get stabbed though.


I am not sure I pity the guy either but I certainly blame the cops for using lethal force when it was not immediately necessary... and then the douche bag cop shouting at people to get back... and then further back... and then further and further back? That cop was retarded and hopped up on power.

I disagree. Get the hell back. If you want a proper investigation, you cannot have those morons shoving cameras in the cops face, can't have them trampling the crime scene, and all of that.
 
It isn't there job to get stabbed though.

Red Herring. You are dodging the point... it is their job to use non-lethal means whenever they can. That is the point. They didn't even try here...

I disagree. Get the hell back. If you want a proper investigation, you cannot have those morons shoving cameras in the cops face, can't have them trampling the crime scene, and all of that.

They did and nobody was shoving cameras anywhere... How far do you have to get back though? The cop was sending them to BFE 100 meters back.
 
And the Officer MIGHT have got stabbed up trying to use it too.

But instead the Officer is alive and unharmed and the knife wielding "suicide by cop" guy is deceased.....good.


It is good that the police are alive.

What was the intoxication level of drugs and alcohol for the man with the knife? If the man with the knife had been subdued, would his belligerent behavior become more rational?


Maybe one officer could have taken responsibility for using the taser, and one officer could have had his pistol aimed at the suspect.

The team work could have been training for one officer to take the non-lethal tactics and the other officer to be ready with live bullets.

Did the officer have the 35 Foot cartridges for their tasers?


Had the police chief asked for upgraded tasers in the budget?

When was the last time the officers had practiced tasers with the taser training laptop? What taser training was available to the officers? What is the average number of police training hours per 4 months on taser training? Pepper spray training? Did the officers have gas masks, so they could have protected themselves from pepper spray back wind?


The Police Chief needs to explain why he has not asked fro more money for upgraded 35 foot tasers. The police chief should have a strategy practiced for the utilization of non-lethal tasers or pepper spray, by at least one officer in the responding team of officers. The video shows that both officers had a clear view of the man with the knife, and either officer could have used a taser first. There was clearly time on the video, for having used a taser before shots were fired.




//
 
Last edited:
Two police approaching the man with a knife. The man was seemingly staggering drunk.
The following can be set to 1080p.
Please point out where you see him "seemingly staggering drunk".

 
It is good that the police are alive.

What was the intoxication level of drugs and alcohol for the man with the knife? If the man with the knife had been subdued, would his belligerent behavior become more rational?


Maybe one officer could have taken responsibility for using the taser, and one officer could have had his pistol aimed at the suspect.

The team work could have been training for one officer to take the non-lethal tactics and the other officer to be ready with live bullets.

Did the officer have the 35 Foot cartridges for their tasers?


Had the police chief asked for upgraded tasers in the budget?

When was the last time the officers had practiced tasers with the taser training laptop? What taser training was available to the officers? What is the average number of police training hours per 4 months on taser training? Pepper spray training? Did the officers have gas masks, so they could have protected themselves from pepper spray back wind?


The Police Chief needs to explain why he has not asked fro more money for upgraded 35 foot tasers. The police chief should have a strategy practiced for the utilization of non-lethal tasers or pepper spray, by at least one officer in the responding team of officers. The video shows that both officers had a clear view of the man with the knife, and either officer could have used a taser first. There was clearly time on the video, for having used a taser before shots were fired.




//

35 foot tasers are more ineffective. The taser probes spread apart as they go farther. While this creates a stronger effect on the subject, it also causes a hell of alot more misses because the probes spread to a point where they are landing on limbs which move around. I wouldn't trust them.
 
Red Herring. You are dodging the point... it is their job to use non-lethal means whenever they can. That is the point. They didn't even try here...

If they saw the knife as the guy comes at them...kind of hard to consider that less lethal option. Especially when our cops don't wear stab proof vests (they do in the UK).


They did and nobody was shoving cameras anywhere... How far do you have to get back though? The cop was sending them to BFE 100 meters back.

GOOD! That permitter has to allow for everything including the lead up to the shooting and beyond. Sorry but I have read enough sherlock novels to know that details are important. Even the little ones. Can't have people trampling them.
 
Back
Top Bottom