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Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

The Man said:
Why should we be sympathetic to the criminal in these situations? Don't get on the bus with a knife and order everyone off if you don't want to be shot by police. I just can't understand the rooting for the bad guy in these situations.
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There is no rooting for the bad guy. Often times there is no bad guy just poor judgment on both sides. In the Toronto case it was a small knife and he had evacuated the other riders from the bus. No one was going to get harmed. My god they could have just waited him out. Why must every situation be met with violence...why is that rooted on? What is great about taking the life of another human being? In the Toronto case it left a family with a dead kid, a kid who had just had a meltdown and was suicidal...how is that being a bad guy? Just a confused kid with some mental issues.

As for here, we don't know his story, maybe it was justified but what if someone had some training and a clear head and been able to get him to put it down...would that not have been the best solution for all? I think so.

If you know someone who has taken a life either in a justified manner or by accident, you know from that person, there are recurring doubts. It is not an easy thing to live with and neither should it be...you can't bring them back you have to live with having taken a life.
 
Top Cat said:
Nice metaphor Jack. But it looks cut and died to me.
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Sounds like suicide by cop to me.

You know, because its literally suicide to confront a Police Officer with a knife.
 
~SAL said:
There is no rooting for the bad guy. Often times there is no bad guy just poor judgment on both sides. In the Toronto case it was a small knife and he had evacuated the other riders from the bus. No one was going to get harmed. My god they could have just waited him out. Why must every situation be met with violence...why is that rooted on? What is great about taking the life of another human being? In the Toronto case it left a family with a dead kid, a kid who had just had a meltdown and was suicidal...how is that being a bad guy? Just a confused kid with some mental issues.

As for here, we don't know his story, maybe it was justified but what if someone had some training and a clear head and been able to get him to put it down...would that not have been the best solution for all? I think so.

If you know someone who has taken a life either in a justified manner or by accident, you know from that person, there are recurring doubts. It is not an easy thing to live with and neither should it be...you can't bring them back you have to live with having taken a life.
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What is a 'small knife'? On a scale of 1 being a Buck pocket knife and 10 being a machete, how did the bus hijacker's knife rank?

He was stupid regardless for getting onto a bus, brandishing a knife and forcing people off. If you don't want to get shot by police, don't do that. It's simple. The police bear no fault.
 
The Man said:
You are armchair quarterbacking and not thinking this through. If the taser doesn't work, a person can run at you 16' in a second. You don't try the taser first, and then if that doesn't work draw your gun in that situation where an armed person is coming at you.
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I am talking about the training of the officers.

Maybe the officers should be taught to shoot a taser with their left hand. What training have the officers had in diffusing Anger and Fear? Many people take cocaine and Crack. These drugs, and others, have comedowns, that makes people agitated.

What training did the officer have in quelling a disturbed person? What training did he have in disarming a person with a knife? Did the officer even think about shooting the taser first with his left hand? Had he target practices left hand with a taser?


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The Man said:
What is a 'small knife'? On a scale of 1 being a Buck pocket knife and 10 being a machete, how did the bus hijacker's knife rank?

He was stupid regardless for getting onto a bus, brandishing a knife and forcing people off. If you don't want to get shot by police, don't do that. It's simple. The police bear no fault.
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Knife size is irrelevant to me when a kid is alone on a city bus with a knife, nothing I am going to say is going to change your mind about what you believe is a righteous kill either here or in the Toronto case.

to me, it's a high price to pay for a psychotic break

I know for many the world is a place of right and wrong, black and white with little to no grey or nuance, I just have never been able to view any situation that way for the most part until I've considered all alternatives...

to me, all alternatives should be considered before taking a life, sometimes it has to be done, other times if it had been handled by someone with the ability to analyze, someone with a modicum of understanding about human behaviour things end best for all, in my little world at least
 
~SAL said:
Knife size is irrelevant to me when a kid is alone on a city bus with a knife, nothing I am going to say is going to change your mind about what you believe is a righteous kill either here or in the Toronto case.

to me, it's a high price to pay for a psychotic break

I know for many the world is a place of right and wrong, black and white with little to no grey or nuance, I just have never been able to view any situation that way for the most part until I've considered all alternatives...

to me, all alternatives should be considered before taking a life, sometimes it has to be done, other times if it had been handled by someone with the ability to analyze, someone with a modicum of understanding about human behaviour things end best for all, in my little world at least
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But it's not just a psychotic break, it's a public threat, and yes, they are a bad guy when they do that. The reality is, if you don't want any chance of getting shot by police, don't do that **** in public. The police in this Missouri situation did everything right.
 
Fenton said:
Sounds like suicide by cop to me.

You know, because its literally suicide to confront a Police Officer with a knife.
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Certainly does on the surface. I have to wonder the guy's mental status.
 
Gladiator said:
I am talking about the training of the officers.

Maybe the officers should be taught to shoot a taser with their left hand. What training have the officers had in diffusing Anger and Fear? Many people take cocaine and Crack. These drugs, and others, have comedowns, that makes people agitated.

What training did the officer have in quelling a disturbed person? What training did he have in disarming a person with a knife? Did the officer even think about shooting the taser first with his left hand? Had he target practices left hand with a taser?


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So you are of the mind that this criminal being shot and killed is totally the officers'/police department's fault, and the criminal attacking with a knife did nothing to make it his own fault?
 
The Man said:
So you are of the mind that this criminal being shot and killed is totally the officers'/police department's fault, and the criminal attacking with a knife did nothing to make it his own fault?
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The exact facts of this case are not known with precision. The officer may have considered to use a taser, but did not have time.

What was his training?

When shooting a 9 MM pistol, it is often helpful to brace the right hand with the left hand. The left hand could be ready to shoot the Traser, drop the traser launcher, in one movement, while staring to pull the trigger with the right hand, if necessary. With practice. This could be practiced, fire the traser, then fire the pistol, in quick succession.

There could be more police shootings avoided, if police had better training.



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Gladiator said:
How long does it take to fire a taser? Maybe there should be a rule that any police officer should have his taser drawn when going to a knife report. A taser can go 16 Feet.

Before a policeman kills someone, there should be a duty to at least attempt to taser the individual

Many police are trained to go for the kill with little provocation. The training should be improved to include non-lethal attempts to subdue a belligerent individual.

Some branches of Aiklido teach protecting oneself, while discharging anger from the individual. "Why are you upset?" "Why are you angry?" Get the guy talking, working out his anger or fears.


When a policeman is asked, "Why did you use lethal force on this individual?"

The Officer should be able to explain how he tried to use a taser at first.


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You don't seem to understand this isn't tv and movies. It takes virtually no time to walk 10 feet. 3 seconds is a very slow walk of 10 feet. To transition from an ineffective taser shot to a firearm takes longer than that. Not worth the risk of death.

Do an experiment. Put a set of keys in your pocket and have a friend walk 10 feet from you. At the command go, have them walk toward you at a moderate pace while you transition from pointing at them to pulling the keys out of your pocket and pointing the keys at them.

And that experiment is giving you more advantage over an officer because you already know exactly what to do and are not in fear for your life.
 
The Man said:
But it's not just a psychotic break, it's a public threat, and yes, they are a bad guy when they do that. The reality is, if you don't want any chance of getting shot by police, don't do that **** in public. The police in this Missouri situation did everything right.
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Public safety is critical, I agree.

If you don't want to be shot by the police, don't do that, I agree.

Here's the addition to that though, if you are going to arm a group of people with big guns and ask them to protect the public, they had best be mentally and physically capable of that job with a higher than average IQ, fully trained, know how to negotiate and kill only as a last resort. And they have to be accountable for those deaths. And throw a camera on them so we know how each and every kill goes down. That protects the public and the cops.
 
~SAL said:
There is no rooting for the bad guy. Often times there is no bad guy just poor judgment on both sides. In the Toronto case it was a small knife and he had evacuated the other riders from the bus. No one was going to get harmed. My god they could have just waited him out. Why must every situation be met with violence...why is that rooted on? What is great about taking the life of another human being? In the Toronto case it left a family with a dead kid, a kid who had just had a meltdown and was suicidal...how is that being a bad guy? Just a confused kid with some mental issues.

As for here, we don't know his story, maybe it was justified but what if someone had some training and a clear head and been able to get him to put it down...would that not have been the best solution for all? I think so.

If you know someone who has taken a life either in a justified manner or by accident, you know from that person, there are recurring doubts. It is not an easy thing to live with and neither should it be...you can't bring them back you have to live with having taken a life.
Click to expand...

So it's perfectly normal and acceptable to hijack a bus? That is just considered a "bad decision"? Sounds like you are excusing criminal behavior to me.

Unbelievable
 
Gladiator said:
". LOUIS, MO (KTVI) – St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson says officers warned a suspect multiple times to put down his weapon before they shot and killed him.

The shooting happened around 1 p.m. Tuesday at McLaran and Riverview. Police say the suspect tried to rob the Six Star Market convenience store with a knife. Chief Sam Dotson said the store owner let the man leave the store. A St. Louis City Alderwoman witnessed the man walking erratically around and called police.

When officers arrived, the suspect refused to put down weapon despite multiple verbal command by police. Chief Sam Dotson says the man yelled at officers “shoot me now” several times. Witnesses also confirmed what the man said.

Dotson says the man continued to refuse the officer’s commands, approached within three to four feet of them with the knife in an attack posture."

St. Louis City police shoot, kill knife-wielding suspect | FOX2now.com


So there is some reason the police could not have tried a stun gun before using lethal force? Seems like poor police training.





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Becoming a police officer doesn't mean you are making a suicide pact with every nutjob with a weapon. If there's a threat it should be neutralized as efficiently as possible without risk to the officer or any bystanders.
 
~SAL said:
that's too bad....we had a similar one up in Toronto this year...guy got onto a bus with a little knife...ordered everyone off....cops shot him....

These people are supposed to be trained in negotiation...it seems lately fear is over riding their better judgement...

hard thing later for a good cop to live with...maybe not so hard for someone unbalanced who shouldn't be in that profession to begin with
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And according to the eyewitnesses, the police officer's life was in danger. This wasn't a "he ordered everyone off and the cops shot him" story. You left out a lot of information between. He was charging the retreating officer. There was no negotiating with this guy.
 
Fenton said:
Sounds like suicide by cop to me.

You know, because its literally suicide to confront a Police Officer with a knife.
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We now have the poster boy for the saying "Never bring a knife to a gunfight". LOL.
 
Caine said:
You don't seem to understand this isn't tv and movies. It takes virtually no time to walk 10 feet. 3 seconds is a very slow walk of 10 feet. To transition from an ineffective taser shot to a firearm takes longer than that. Not worth the risk of death.

Do an experiment. Put a set of keys in your pocket and have a friend walk 10 feet from you. At the command go, have them walk toward you at a moderate pace while you transition from pointing at them to pulling the keys out of your pocket and pointing the keys at them.

And that experiment is giving you more advantage over an officer because you already know exactly what to do and are not in fear for your life.
Click to expand...


Seattle Police are apparently trained how to use trasers, before shooting. Why can't St. Louis officer be trained to use a taser first?

There might be less riots if trasers were tried first.

If Brown was 30 feet away, what was the danger to the officer?

"On Tuesday, King County Sheriff's deputies tried to Tase a burglary suspect. That failed, and police shot him. He's now hospitalized.

Last month, a Taser had no effect on a suspect who stopped his pickup in the middle of traffic on the Ship Canal Bridge.

"A lot of deployments are done in split second timing with someone charging," Tuttle said. "You may have weapon and may be violent and you may have to hit a moving target and that may be in play here."

That may have been the case in Kitsap County when a suspect pulled a knife. When the Taser didn't stop him, officers fired multiple shots, killing the man."

Tasers ineffective in four recent officer-involved shootings | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News
 
Caine said:
So it's perfectly normal and acceptable to hijack a bus? That is just considered a "bad decision"? Sounds like you are excusing criminal behavior to me.

Unbelievable
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It may sound like that to you because you do not wish to understand the situation as I presented it and then discuss it from there.

So in your world it just perfectly normal to not examine the facts, make huge leaps in judgement and arrive at the conclusion you wish regardless of the facts?

Now that's unbelievable.

The statement I made about you is ludicrous but no more so than your summation of my post.

Enjoy your evening.
 
Suicide by police isn't something that will make me critical of officers in question.
 
tres borrachos said:
And according to the eyewitnesses, the police officer's life was in danger. This wasn't a "he ordered everyone off and the cops shot him" story. You left out a lot of information between. He was charging the retreating officer. There was no negotiating with this guy.
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And that may well be.

It is none the less, a shame when no other option appears to be available or police panic and shoot instead of using their head.
 
Moon said:
Becoming a police officer doesn't mean you are making a suicide pact with every nutjob with a weapon. If there's a threat it should be neutralized as efficiently as possible without risk to the officer or any bystanders.
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What is wrong with some more advanced training with a combination of Traser first, Shoot second?

What is wrong with having more training is asking nut jobs questions to get them thinking more rationally?

The training is not there. It is not about Never killing anyone. It is about TRYING to avoid death. Tasers are a step in avoiding deaths.
 
Gladiator said:
How long does it take to fire a taser? Maybe there should be a rule that any police officer should have his taser drawn when going to a knife report. A taser can go 16 Feet.

Before a policeman kills someone, there should be a duty to at least attempt to taser the individual

Many police are trained to go for the kill with little provocation. The training should be improved to include non-lethal attempts to subdue a belligerent individual.

Some branches of Aiklido teach protecting oneself, while discharging anger from the individual. "Why are you upset?" "Why are you angry?" Get the guy talking, working out his anger or fears.


When a policeman is asked, "Why did you use lethal force on this individual?"

The Officer should be able to explain how he tried to use a taser at first.


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A taser is non-lethal, and a worthless tool when defending yourself or others.

If someone is coming at a cop, or citizen for all that matters, and they are in fear for their life, lethal force from a gun is justified and should be used.

Don't want to get shot? Don't attack armed cops or citizens.

My .45 rounds are color blind - come after me or my family and you are definitely going to get shot, no matter what color you are.
 
SMTA said:
A taser is non-lethal, and a worthless tool when defending yourself or others.

If someone is coming at a cop, or citizen for all that matters, and they are in fear for their life, lethal force from a gun is justified and should be used.

Don't want to get shot? Don't attack armed cops or citizens.

My .45 rounds are color blind - come after me or my family and you are definitely going to get shot, no matter what color you are.
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Sometimes they work.
 
Gladiator said:
Would a stun gun have subdued the man with a knife?
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21 foot rule. If you're close enough to use a taser, he's close enough to cause serious harm with a knife, up to and including death.

Knives are weapons.
 
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