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Thread: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Then why do you continue to claim that they dont use them appropriately? Again...the final decision is up to them...only they are the ones in a position to decide that terminal risk. But you continue to claim that they should *try harder.* Or arent using them 'enough.'

    The point is....you dont know but dont like it.
    I can't make this any more simple for you. A guy with a knife can be subdued with a tazer. Pulling a gun first isn't even trying to use non-lethal force. If a cop is alone... gun. 100%. IF there are more then the ability to use non-lethal options is obvious.

    ... and I stated that it is up to them only because the law says it is up to them. Non-lethal force should be attempted every time there is a possibility that it could work. You don't even want them to try. "Screw that guy, he has a knife and there are a lot of us? Let's waste the bastard!"
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I can't make this any more simple for you. A guy with a knife can be subdued with a tazer. Pulling a gun first isn't even trying to use non-lethal force. If a cop is alone... gun. 100%. IF there are more then the ability to use non-lethal options is obvious.

    ... and I stated that it is up to them only because the law says it is up to them. Non-lethal force should be attempted every time there is a possibility that it could work. You don't even want them to try. "Screw that guy, he has a knife and there are a lot of us? Let's waste the bastard!"

    No...not always. Within a certain distance and on drugs or adrenaline or just by momentum...he can still kill. He can take more than one gunshot, much less withstand a taser. Even if it comes from another cop...if you are the target...you can die.

    So you are completely wrong. Completely.

    And as for the bold...we've been over this. You are assuming they dont. Again....you dont know they didnt and if they didnt, you dont know why...you werent there. The laws, policies, and guidelines are clear. The imminent risk of death isnt always...that's why it's left up to the cop.

    And dont be ridiculous...where did I ever say I didnt want them to try? Let's not get dramatic here.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    No...not always. Within a certain distance and on drugs or adrenaline or just by momentum...he can still kill. He can take more than one gunshot, much less withstand a taser. Even if it comes from another cop...if you are the target...you can die.

    So you are completely wrong. Completely.
    That is why I modified my statement to include back up...

    And as for the bold...we've been over this. You are assuming they dont. Again....you dont know they didnt and if they didnt, you dont know why...you werent there. The laws, policies, and guidelines are clear. The imminent risk of death isnt always...that's why it's left up to the cop.

    And dont be ridiculous...where did I ever say I didnt want them to try? Let's not get dramatic here.
    I am not talking about any incident that I have not read about or watched... I am only talking about incidents that I have knowledge about.

    Almost dinner time so I am out of here. Take care and have a good night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    That is why I modified my statement to include back up...



    I am not talking about any incident that I have not read about or watched... I am only talking about incidents that I have knowledge about.

    Almost dinner time so I am out of here. Take care and have a good night.
    And I included that in my reply....that if you are the 'target,' meaning you are the one being lunged at...someone else's taser or bullet wont necessarily stop them before they get to you. You are not even reading properly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    And I included that in my reply....that if you are the 'target,' meaning you are the one being lunged at...someone else's taser or bullet wont necessarily stop them before they get to you. You are not even reading properly.
    Bye...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Are we going to have a new thread every time some cop fatally shoots a perp in St. Louis?

    There are other cities in The United States you know.

    Why just focus on St. Louis?

    I highly doubt St. Louis cops are substantially more or less corrupt or trigger happy then any other place in America with a remotely similar crime rate.

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I responded by backing away and getting in my car. The guy was not robbing me or anything and I think that he thought my friend was a threat to him...

    I am now a teacher, just to be clear... The knife was by a female student. I was so close that my first reaction was to grab her wrist and disarm her... luckily nobody was hurt.
    In neither case were they attacking you, so your responses can't really be valid in cases where someone is attacking you, and not someone else. Someone who is being personally targeted would definitely have significantly more impaired decision-making capabilities, I should think. Regardless, I commend and respect you for your decision-making and bravery in the face of danger, and the steps you took to protect both yourself and those around you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post

    My point was not that cops are unjustified in using deadly force, just that they should attempt to use non-lethal force whenever possible and many times it is possible yet they do not do it. Shooting is the first option for many cops and it should not be. When I said that I was challenged that I could not make that determination since I was not a cop and never faced dangerous situations when I have. My comparisons, even being a fire fighter, were to show that people can think and react during dangerous situations that are not cops. It is not a cop owned trait, thinking under life threatening situations... not by a long shot.

    TSA bug the crap out of me. I travel internationally at least once a year (generally back to the USA) and they are chumps.

    Most cops are fine. It is the trigger happy ones and the jerks that I have a problem with...
    I agree that shooting should not be the first option. I value life a lot, and sympathize (for lack of a better word) with some criminals. Many have horrible, poor, unfortunate, misery-stricken lives. That certainly doesn't justify the things they do, but it helps put it into perspective, I think. Cops should always and actively seek ways to protect and preserve life - it's too valuable.

    That being said, I would argue that police officers who shoot to kill dangerous criminals are protecting the life of those around them, including themselves. Other factors obviously have to be considered in different circumstances. For example, if Wilson was shooting Brown to protect himself, it would take a lot more than one 9mm bullet to stop a 300lb, 6'4 charging male. 6+ shots were justified (assuming Wilson's story is the right one), though obviously the "6 SHOTS" headline endlessly perpetuated might seem excessive.

    I've never had a positive experience entering the United States, especially JFK. I travelled for 75+ hours (many layovers, delays, cancelations) to get back to my university, and I was more frustrated and tired in the 20 minutes of immigration than I was in the other 75 hours. It's indicative of the quality (or lack thereof) of law enforcement officer selection, although it's very important to recognize there are many good officers.

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by contrapositive View Post
    In neither case were they attacking you, so your responses can't really be valid in cases where someone is attacking you, and not someone else. Someone who is being personally targeted would definitely have significantly more impaired decision-making capabilities, I should think. Regardless, I commend and respect you for your decision-making and bravery in the face of danger, and the steps you took to protect both yourself and those around you.



    I agree that shooting should not be the first option. I value life a lot, and sympathize (for lack of a better word) with some criminals. Many have horrible, poor, unfortunate, misery-stricken lives. That certainly doesn't justify the things they do, but it helps put it into perspective, I think. Cops should always and actively seek ways to protect and preserve life - it's too valuable.

    That being said, I would argue that police officers who shoot to kill dangerous criminals are protecting the life of those around them, including themselves. Other factors obviously have to be considered in different circumstances. For example, if Wilson was shooting Brown to protect himself, it would take a lot more than one 9mm bullet to stop a 300lb, 6'4 charging male. 6+ shots were justified (assuming Wilson's story is the right one), though obviously the "6 SHOTS" headline endlessly perpetuated might seem excessive.

    I've never had a positive experience entering the United States, especially JFK. I travelled for 75+ hours (many layovers, delays, cancelations) to get back to my university, and I was more frustrated and tired in the 20 minutes of immigration than I was in the other 75 hours. It's indicative of the quality (or lack thereof) of law enforcement officer selection, although it's very important to recognize there are many good officers.
    I agree with most of this but would clarify that I was initially challenged as not being able to have a valid opinion because I was not a cop. That is false. A person that engages in life and death situations and survives or is aware has a different take on time and stress. What seems like an instant to some seems like an eternity to me and that allows me to be able to put myself in the situations that cops face at times...
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by OldFatGuy View Post
    Usually a gag for wise mouthed insulting little girls. Then some good nylon rope so I can tie them up, toss them in the trunk of my car and forget about them.

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