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Thread: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

  1. #191
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I never saved a life during a violent interaction and fail to see how any of this relates to my view that many cops use lethal force when they could first use non-lethal force.
    I've had a knife pulled on me, but have never been attacked (I complied and gave him the contents of my wallet).

    If someone charges at me with a knife from a close distance, and I am armed - I will shoot him. I won't hesitate. I will not regret it. However, looking back, I could have run away, because I am a very fast runner, but that's an instance of me determining a possible course of action without the immediate threat of danger. It's easy to criticize someone's decision looking back, but that doesn't mean your criticism is valid. Of course, when officers look back and reflect on the decisions they have made, they speculate endlessly on what they could have done. For example, back in high school, my best friend was being bullied by an older kid in my grade outside of school. I threw him off and shoved him to the floor. Could I have been more gentle? Perhaps. That doesn't mean my actions were unjustified. Just because there were other possible courses of action, does not mean they were reasonable or the correct action in that split second.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    My point was that I do not need to be a cop to understand life threatening situations, how to assess said situations or how people can handle themselves. Split second situations are not unique to cops.
    Obviously not. But you are a fire fighter. Police officers are trained to respond to criminals (not fires) who are violent and more than willing to use lethal force.

    I'm curious. How did you respond to a gun being pulled on you?

    I digress. I don't like many law enforcement officers. I especially despise TSA agents, as an international student. I have rarely had a nice encounter. They are rude and very hostile towards international kids. I don't like their attitudes. One TSA agent was very vague in his directions and then told me to "sit down" in a very rude manner, in front of ~30 international students. I told him to "do not talk to me like that" I despise LEO's who are like that. But again, I understand why police officers respond with lethal force. I'd absolutely want my campus security officers to use lethal force if some madman decides to bring a gun on campus on shoot at them, my friends or I. I'd probably be angry if a security officer hesitated and used a taser, risking the lives of other people.

    It's imperative to remember that these kinds of moments require strong, decisive and resolute action from law enforcement officers.

  2. #192
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    We have discussed nothing that is outside of those laws, policies, and guidelines. Yet you continue to claim there needs to be more training and that cops need to consider *other* methods besides lethal when handling situations.

    It's all spelled out there for you, why they can, and do, and why they cannot and do not.
    There is no training that is needed. It is common sense. A guy is there with a knife against two cops. One attempts to use a tazer and the other backs him up with a gun. There is more too... the closer cop could have backed around the car much sooner creating space and a barrier. There is a lot that can be done PRIOR to pulling a pistol and just shooting away...
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    There is no training that is needed. It is common sense. A guy is there with a knife against two cops. One attempts to use a tazer and the other backs him up with a gun. There is more too... the closer cop could have backed around the car much sooner creating space and a barrier. There is a lot that can be done PRIOR to pulling a pistol and just shooting away...
    How do you know they dont attempt that? Or many other strategies?

    The cop that was killed by the naked guy...what do you think he tried? He certainly didnt kill what ended up being a lethal threat.

    I dont understand your assumptions at all. You have no idea what actually happens in most encounters....

    The point is, when it's your life....or theirs....on the line...the final decision in self defense is based on all the guidelines I posted....and then up to that individual alone. It's not your decision to make for anyone else....it's not your life at risk.
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  4. #194
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by contrapositive View Post
    I've had a knife pulled on me, but have never been attacked (I complied and gave him the contents of my wallet).

    If someone charges at me with a knife from a close distance, and I am armed - I will shoot him. I won't hesitate. I will not regret it. However, looking back, I could have run away, because I am a very fast runner, but that's an instance of me determining a possible course of action without the immediate threat of danger. It's easy to criticize someone's decision looking back, but that doesn't mean your criticism is valid. Of course, when officers look back and reflect on the decisions they have made, they speculate endlessly on what they could have done. For example, back in high school, my best friend was being bullied by an older kid in my grade outside of school. I threw him off and shoved him to the floor. Could I have been more gentle? Perhaps. That doesn't mean my actions were unjustified. Just because there were other possible courses of action, does not mean they were reasonable or the correct action in that split second.



    Obviously not. But you are a fire fighter. Police officers are trained to respond to criminals (not fires) who are violent and more than willing to use lethal force.

    I'm curious. How did you respond to a gun being pulled on you?

    I digress. I don't like many law enforcement officers. I especially despise TSA agents, as an international student. I have rarely had a nice encounter. They are rude and very hostile towards international kids. I don't like their attitudes. One TSA agent was very vague in his directions and then told me to "sit down" in a very rude manner, in front of ~30 international students. I told him to "do not talk to me like that" I despise LEO's who are like that. But again, I understand why police officers respond with lethal force. I'd absolutely want my campus security officers to use lethal force if some madman decides to bring a gun on campus on shoot at them, my friends or I. I'd probably be angry if a security officer hesitated and used a taser, risking the lives of other people.

    It's imperative to remember that these kinds of moments require strong, decisive and resolute action from law enforcement officers.
    I responded by backing away and getting in my car. The guy was not robbing me or anything and I think that he thought my friend was a threat to him...

    I am now a teacher, just to be clear... The knife was by a female student. I was so close that my first reaction was to grab her wrist and disarm her... luckily nobody was hurt.

    My point was not that cops are unjustified in using deadly force, just that they should attempt to use non-lethal force whenever possible and many times it is possible yet they do not do it. Shooting is the first option for many cops and it should not be. When I said that I was challenged that I could not make that determination since I was not a cop and never faced dangerous situations when I have. My comparisons, even being a fire fighter, were to show that people can think and react during dangerous situations that are not cops. It is not a cop owned trait, thinking under life threatening situations... not by a long shot.

    TSA bug the crap out of me. I travel internationally at least once a year (generally back to the USA) and they are chumps.

    Most cops are fine. It is the trigger happy ones and the jerks that I have a problem with...
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  5. #195
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    How do you know they dont attempt that? Or many other strategies?

    The cop that was killed by the naked guy...what do you think he tried? He certainly didnt kill what ended up being a lethal threat.

    I dont understand your assumptions at all. You have no idea what actually happens in most encounters....

    The point is, when it's your life....or theirs....on the line...the final decision in self defense is based on all the guidelines I posted....and then up to that individual alone. It's not your decision to make for anyone else....it's not your life at risk.
    I have no idea what your problem is or why you refuse to accept that many cops shoot when not necessary...

    Law enforcement officers in Harris County have shot 65 unarmed people since 1999, killing 17. These incidents represent more than a third of all local police shootings, but experts call them the most preventable.

    One in three police shootings involve unarmed people - Houston Chronicle

    ... and if I am watching an encounter on TV then I know what is happening in that encounter. Do you think that I am bashing cops about stuff that I have no idea about, or something?
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    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I'm sexist and hypocritical, lol:

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    I have no idea what your problem is or why you refuse to accept that many cops shoot when not necessary...

    Law enforcement officers in Harris County have shot 65 unarmed people since 1999, killing 17. These incidents represent more than a third of all local police shootings, but experts call them the most preventable.

    One in three police shootings involve unarmed people - Houston Chronicle

    ... and if I am watching an encounter on TV then I know what is happening in that encounter. Do you think that I am bashing cops about stuff that I have no idea about, or something?
    Unless convicted of homicide in those shooting, how are you claiming they are unnecessary?

    Yes, there are some bad shoots...no doubt. Cops do make mistakes....did you miss where I posted about the ones that broke into a house and shot the wrong guy 16 times? So there's no way I deny cops dont make mistakes.

    Edit: And I have no idea what you are watching on TV but as a general statement about this issue, I dont believe you know what you are talking about.
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Unless convicted of homicide in those shooting, how are you claiming they are unnecessary?

    Yes, there are some bad shoots...no doubt. Cops do make mistakes....did you miss where I posted about the ones that broke into a house and shot the wrong guy 16 times? So there's no way I deny cops dont make mistakes.

    Edit: And I have no idea what you are watching on TV but as a general statement about this issue, I dont believe you know what you are talking about.
    What specifically do I not know what I am talking about? You post something that is irrelevant to my point and seem to refuse to accept that cops are given non-lethal methods of subduing a person but that many times use lethal force instead. My post that I just gave you said that the experts are saying that many of these shootings are preventable... and homicide is a Red Herring and a totally different can of worms.

    ...and I am watching the videos posted that everybody can see and just about all the cops shows that are on TV. As I live outside the USA I get far more that you would and see the difference between American cops and cops in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Great Britain.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I'm sexist and hypocritical, lol:

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    What specifically do I not know what I am talking about? You post something that is irrelevant to my point and seem to refuse to accept that cops are given non-lethal methods of subduing a person but that many times use lethal force instead. My post that I just gave you said that the experts are saying that many of these shootings are preventable... and homicide is a Red Herring and a totally different can of worms.

    ...and I am watching the videos posted that everybody can see and just about all the cops shows that are on TV. As I live outside the USA I get far more that you would and see the difference between American cops and cops in Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and Great Britain.
    And you continue to ignore that that final decision is left up to them...the ones that determine that they themselves need to use lethal force.

    Just because they are provided those other methods dont mean they are required to use them at the risk of their own lives.

    And since the countries you name have seriously curtailed the firearms...commonly used by criminals here... it's not remotely a parallel.

    And TV.....you use cop shows as a basis for your opinions??????
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    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #199
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    And you continue to ignore that that final decision is left up to them...the ones that determine that they themselves need to use lethal force.

    Just because they are provided those other methods dont mean they are required to use them at the risk of their own lives.

    And since the countries you name have seriously curtailed the firearms...commonly used by criminals here... it's not remotely a parallel.

    And TV.....you use cop shows as a basis for your opinions??????
    As part of my basis... sure. Who wouldn't? It is simply another source. I just mentioned some cop shows though but I have obviously provided other sources too. I get my facts from sources like I provided you and from reading about incidents as well as watching them.

    ... and no, I have not once ignored that the final decision is up to them. I have specifically stated that it is up to them but that they have other options than lethal force. Of course they are not required to use them. That is the damn problem. From what I glean, people like you that defend a shoot first attitude and police forces that justify deadly force when there are other options.

    ...and when you watch a few shows from outside the USA and compare how cops treat an unarmed guy smoking weed in the USA to a guy in New Zealand or Great Britain you will see not only that your argument is a Straw Man but how rude and aggressive USA cops are and how much they lie and go for the arrest over everything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have pooped in public, even in public neighborhoods.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I'm sexist and hypocritical, lol:

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    As part of my basis... sure. Who wouldn't? It is simply another source. I just mentioned some cop shows though but I have obviously provided other sources too. I get my facts from sources like I provided you and from reading about incidents as well as watching them.

    ... and no, I have not once ignored that the final decision is up to them. I have specifically stated that it is up to them but that they have other options than lethal force. Of course they are not required to use them. That is the damn problem. From what I glean, people like you that defend a shoot first attitude and police forces that justify deadly force when there are other options.

    ...and when you watch a few shows from outside the USA and compare how cops treat an unarmed guy smoking weed in the USA to a guy in New Zealand or Great Britain you will see not only that your argument is a Straw Man but how rude and aggressive USA cops are and how much they lie and go for the arrest over everything else.
    Then why do you continue to claim that they dont use them appropriately? Again...the final decision is up to them...only they are the ones in a position to decide that terminal risk. But you continue to claim that they should *try harder.* Or arent using them 'enough.'

    The point is....you dont know but dont like it. I'm sorry you find American cops arrogant and aggressive...you DO watch way too much TV. I know alot of cops. And I've had to deal with cops that stopped me. Some are assholes....most are not. NONE of the ones I know are.

    and I watch lots of BBC and British TV.
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    Welfare is a bad thing? It is essentially free money. It is not that bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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