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Thread: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

  1. #151
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by ~SAL View Post
    then what exactly is your point...you took my post, twisted it and then argued a point I had not made

    of course I have high expectations of the police force as should we all...they carry weapons, have power and the authority to blow you away.... and in MY particular geographic area, they are well rewarded
    Um, you claimed you thought cops were paid just fine (impled: for the risks they take) and also implied that I was ignorant of police by questioning by background.

    I have done nothing but answer your questions since. And you have gotten increasingly defensive for no reason that I see.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  2. #152
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Um, you claimed you thought cops were paid just fine (impled: for the risks they take) and also implied that I was ignorant of police by questioning by background.
    yes, these are the first clear points that you have made, and I agree with this part of your post

    I have done nothing but answer your questions since. And you have gotten increasingly defensive for no reason
    I don't like my words twisted, it's that simple

  3. #153
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by ~SAL View Post
    yes, these are the first clear points that you have made, and I agree with this part of your post

    I don't like my words twisted, it's that simple
    I didnt twist your words anywhere. At least nowhere I'm aware of. I have no need to unnecessarily aggravate you, I normally find you to be a rational poster.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  4. #154
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Lursa, I'm interested in what you feel might constitute a borderline case for lethal response by police. Clearly this particular situation is a slam dunk in your opinion. Can you give an example of something which isn't cut and dried or is solidly cut-and-dried the other way? Hypothetical, or real (e.g., Amadou Diallo) if you prefer.

    I've only watched the video once. I'm not into watching people die and sometimes not inclined toward the detachment necessary to view repeatedly since it's not my job. I'd need to view again to develop a firmer opinion, but my first impression is that this looks borderline. I'm not saying the outcome would've been different in other scenarios but the mechanics along the way seemed to be suboptimal - for cops. I don't wish to armchair quarterback. I will say this: as a citizen, I would want the right to drop that guy in the same situation were I as close as the cops AND had no opportunity for retreat.

    Now, when I run away, that means someone else has to deal with the crazy guy with a knife. Enter the cops. Who don't exactly have the opportunity to run away unless faced with overwhelming force... but this is their job and they're trained, equipped (or should be) blah, blah, blah. I believe if there's the opportunity to retire and regroup that should be first choice over shooting. That is, retreat into an arc of less than 180, forcing the individual to choose a target or maintain some margin of distance from all. One officer can immediately deploy taser or high volume pepper spray, the others ready to shoot as required.

    I didn't see any wall behind them. I didn't see any strategic thinking. I saw all parties continue approach until such time as a police shooting seems justified. ****, man, why'd they get out of the car? The same result could be accomplished by rolling the window down, demanding he drop the knife, then immediately shooting his ass. Basically the functional equivalent. I'm not convinced that's the best they could do.

    I do believe that those sworn to uphold the law should be held to a higher accountability both in legal standards and operational expertise, not lesser. I personally don't feel (based on casual examination) this case is a good poster-boy for police abuse. All the same, I can dredge up dozens or perhaps hundreds of cases which are, with some effort. Most if not all will be accompanied by fabrications and/or significant discrepancies in the associated police report which have been established to be false.

    Part of what might be behind a rush to judgement against the police stems from a growing, cumulative awareness regarding the attitude and modus operandi of many contemporary law enforcement officers. Everyone is a perp, a suspect, my potential killer. I believe you said you were a ranger, Lursa. No ranger I've interacted with has ever made me feel like a subhuman, but cops sure have. Pretty much every casual contact in the last couple of decades, except when I've called them, and sometimes even then.

    Based on comments favorable towards the police made in this thread, it seems to be acknowledged that nearly any confrontation between police and commoners could be life threatening to the officer - i.e., a blow the the head can be fatal, which it can. I freely admit that at any time, a sufficiently motivated person could breach the 21ft distance and kill an officer with their bare hands before it would be possible to react with their weapon. And one never knows when this might happen. If officer safety is the first concern, would it not be appropriate to have all non-police officers automatically assume a compliance position when an officer approaches them within a certain threshold distance, say 25 feet?

    Hmm. That's such an obvious incursion on personal liberty, it CAN'T fly. (Don't bet on it; I'd give it about 25-30 years before ANY small town cop with have both the technology and legal authority to physically immobilize all persons within a small radius at the touch of the button based on their expert opinion of a perceived threat. They're about to acquire the power to shut off all these pesky cellphones. You seriously think they won't want to be able to shut YOU [generically] off? I would, and I'm a nice guy.) I think the statement in blue in your sig line is true for all people, but especially true for cops, and I think they've by and large abandoned that notion.

    It pains me less to be armchair psychologist than quarterback. I postulate this: what you are seeing is simply backlash against a now well-documented trend of abuse of authority. Notice I said "documented"; the number of cases established to be contrary to police versions seems in near direct proportion to the public's ability to independently document the events.

    Moreover, it may not be fair, but sometimes that's the way the cookie crumbles. I'd say, way more often than not, it crumbles in favor of law enforcement. In each and every way. Public perception (and, yes, I've been surveying this subject for a while) is increasingly vociferous and wider spread regarding police attitudes and actions. Old white ladies with spotless records are taking stands against the police as a whole! I mean, I'm just saying! This didn't come out of a vacuum, and it didn't come out of this one video.
    Last edited by Kat Dorman; 08-29-14 at 10:30 PM.

  5. #155
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Kat Dorman View Post
    Lursa, I'm interested in what you feel might constitute a borderline case for lethal response by police. Clearly this particular situation is a slam dunk in your opionion. Can you give an example of something which isn't cut and dried or is solidly cut-and-dried the other way? Hypothetical, or real (e.g., Amadou Diallo) if you prefer.
    .
    I never said this was a slam dunk. But the police statement did say the guy was within 3-4 feet of at least one cop.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tueller_Drill
    Last edited by Lursa; 08-29-14 at 10:28 PM. Reason: added lilnk
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #156
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    I never said this was a slam dunk.
    Okay, my mistake.

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Kat Dorman View Post
    ... a sufficiently motivated person could breach the 21ft distance and kill an officer with their bare hands before it would be possible to react with their weapon.
    Given I said this, it's a little odd to reply with the link I must be familiar with. TLDR?

  8. #158
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Kat Dorman View Post
    Given I said this, it's a little odd to reply with the link I must be familiar with. TLDR?
    That you dont see the relevance speaks to a lack of knowledge of violence and police encounters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #159
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    That you dont see the relevance speaks to a lack of knowledge of violence and police encounters.
    Why do you think I don't see the relevance? I understand the brief article in its entirety quite well, and I've read every single time you've posted the closest distance in the actual encounter. What's left to see?

  10. #160
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Kat Dorman View Post
    Lursa, I'm interested in what you feel might constitute a borderline case for lethal response by police.
    Hostile suspect with a knife 35 feet from a single police officer. The actions of the suspect determine the actions of the cop.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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