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Thread: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

  1. #131
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    They can also be lethal.
    ^ This is fact.

    http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...006afe9bc.html

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Gladiator View Post
    Can you provides some articles or Police training materials for utilizing non-lethal options?

    Sometimes police are faced with clear aggression, like when shots are fired at them.

    The instant case of a man brandishing a knife, might present a possibility of non-lethal options.

    What was the training of these officers in using non-lethal options first, backed up with adequate self-defense options?

    Did the officers have the 35 Foot cartridges? The 100 foot range tasers?

    Did the officers have the knife resistant vests?

    Perhaps the officers truly had no time for non-lethal options. I cannot look through their eyes, at that time.

    The video seems to indicate there was no planning or effort for non-lethal options.

    The police have to make the on the spot decisions, but the Police Chiefs and city councils look like they are not giving as much non-lethal training and equipment as possible.



    "In this video, a man with a large machete is standing outside Buckingham Palace. The police carefully gage their distance, then shoot him with a Taser gun. The confrontation ends almost instantaneously as the man drops the knife when his body begins to convulse:
    Read more at This Is How UK Police Stop Someone With A Knife | The Daily Banter


    'Sure, it’s not the most effective way of dealing with the situation, but it’s infinitely better than blasting someone away who clearly needs psychiatric help.

    The officers who shot Powell did have a choice. They could have moved away from him. They could have gotten back into their car to protect themselves. They could have run away. All of those options are preferable to killing someone, and those tactics are used in other countries where human life is deemed more valuable than the need to assert authority.

    Police protocol in America allows police officers to apply lethal force when there is “probable cause to believe that the suspect poses a threat of serious physical harm … to the officer or to others.” So a police officer can basically say, “I thought the guy was a threat, so I killed him”. It’s incredibly subjective, and the broad definition and has lead to the death of around 400 people a year in America, a massively disproportionate number being black. That is..."

    Read more at This Is How UK Police Stop Someone With A Knife | The Daily Banter

    This Is How UK Police Stop Someone With A Knife | The Daily Banter
    I asked you to support your claim. I have provided the link to info on the Tueller Drill which specifically addresses this topic, is founded on timed research, is taught to cops, and is admissable in court.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Note: the law and police procedure already demand that lethal force can only be used to stop a lethal threat...or gross bodily harm/prevention of a forcible felony. For some depts, they can also use it to stop a fleeing suspect if they believe he is a threat to public safety.

    How much more restrictive does it need to be?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  3. #133
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Yeah, I'm aware of the warnings. Warnings that you and I would have heeded. But this fella had mental issues.
    You are just as dead if a crazy person kills you.

    Again: A Bellevue cop here was killed by a crazy naked guy. The guy got his gun and killed him with it. Did the cop make some mistakes? Obviously.

    However if he had even drawn his gun at the naked guy, he would have been crucified by the media, can you imagine if he had fired it. Many here would already have convicted him.

    And from what I read here, that would have been justified...he didnt take non-lethal measures first!

    Hate to tell ya but he did...and they failed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  4. #134
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Four or five cops with guns, guns drawn and tasers. Sure, a real sticky situation. I'm with those questioning police training anyway.
    All he has to do is charge one of them. If he's within 21 feet he can reach and kill someone in 1.5 seconds.

    Even single gunshots do not stop instantly, that's rare. Multiple gun shots often do not kill instantly.

    But hey, it's more important to try to save the criminal...nuts or not... than the cop out there putting his life on the line.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  5. #135
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    That ignores so much that it makes the argument a joke because anything, literally, can be a "lethal threat". A jump rope. A fork. My hands... guess we just give cops free reign to blast away anytime there is a construed "lethal threat".
    But NO ONE else can make the split second decisions needed to save their own life except the cop.

    The rules, the laws are there. No one else has the right to tell the cop how he should judge those split seconds, but he still has the burden of proof on him to demonstrate that threat.

    Not everything can 'literally be a lethal threat.' There is distance, timing, ability to take cover, retreat, multiple reinforcements, etc.

    Did you even read the link for the Tueller Drill that I posted? Where multiple tests show that an attacker can reach and kill within 21 feet in 1.5 seconds? That is faster than someone can draw, aim, and shoot. Not to mention that it is uncommon for a single shot to stop an attacker instantly.

    This information is so verified and accepted that it is admissable in court.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  6. #136
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    All he has to do is charge one of them. If he's within 21 feet he can reach and kill someone in 1.5 seconds.

    Even single gunshots do not stop instantly, that's rare. Multiple gun shots often do not kill instantly.

    But hey, it's more important to try to save the criminal...nuts or not... than the cop out there putting his life on the line.
    It doesn't have to be an either or.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhisattva View Post
    Police are not like "everyone" else... they have night sticks, batons, pepper spray and tazers... I feel that they are obligated to use non-lethal measures first in the instances of knives and such and I don't care if they are not paid enough... it is still their job. Don't be a cop if you don't like the risk. A life guard at a busy beach risks their lives, so do fire fighters and other jobs that don't make much. I did both of those by the way and when I went into a burning house, literally, or into huge surf to rescue a person I risked my life. Cops have a gun and seem to feel that they are special and that they are at more risk then "everybody"... they are not.
    Firefighters don't enter derelict structures and don't go after interior attacks when the fire has reached certain levels. Lifeguards don't have to enter the water when conditions risk their lives as well.

    Why do you expect something different from police?

    To be fair. Police should try all means. But sometimes the circumstance just doesn't work that way.
    The Crowd is not the sum of its parts.

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It doesn't have to be an either or.
    Tell that to the dead cops.

    No one else can make those split decisions for anyone in those situations. It's easy for you to not worry about the consequences for other people when you toss around 'feel good' regulations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

  9. #139
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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Lursa View Post
    Tell that to the dead cops.

    No one else can make those split decisions for anyone in those situations. It's easy for you to not worry about the consequences for other people when you toss around 'feel good' regulations.
    Regulations? The focus on police excess is a good thing. Did you note the UN's urging today?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    Re: Another fatal shooting in St. Louis

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    Regulations? The focus on police excess is a good thing. Did you note the UN's urging today?
    We are not talking about excess. Using lethal force to protect yourself from lethal threats is not excessive force.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bucky View Post
    I have felt pain when I was in the womb. So when you say they are incapable of feeling pain, that is based on junk science.
    Quote Originally Posted by applejuicefool View Post
    A murderer putting a bullet through someone's brain is a medical procedure too.

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