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Thread: U.S. court upholds FERC rules on electric grid planning

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    Re: U.S. court upholds FERC rules on electric grid planning

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    This is the problem with the debate... you talk about "storing excess".. no, you use solar and wind to the max when it is available and when it is not.. use coal, oil, nuclear or what ever there else is. The idea is not to replace oil/coal here and now, because we dont have the technology to do that... our battery storage tech is pathetic and we dont invest enough in it. The idea is to lower the usage as much as possible to extend the life span of fossil fuels while we invest in R&D on alternative energies.
    Storing energy for later use is one of the cutting edge technologies being developed by the energy industry. It covers many different methodologies. Your claim about storage has no basis in reality.

    It is astonishing to me how many people think they are experts and go as far as to insult others, when their own ignorance is being so thoroughly displayed.

    For example, regarding my question so simply asked and so obnoxiously responded to:

    As more go solar, grid users forced to pay up - SFGate

    Solar power's surging popularity in California is forcing non-solar homeowners to pay a larger share of maintaining the electricity grid, according to a long-awaited state study released Thursday.

    That additional cost could range from $75 million to $254 million per year, depending on how it's calculated. By 2020, it could range from $359 million to $1.1 billion per year, according to the study from the California Public Utilities Commission.

    The study analyzes a question at the heart of an ongoing fight between utility companies and the solar industry. And it could help reshape the way solar homeowners get paid for the excess electricity they send to the grid.

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    Re: U.S. court upholds FERC rules on electric grid planning

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Storing energy for later use is one of the cutting edge technologies being developed by the energy industry. It covers many different methodologies. Your claim about storage has no basis in reality.
    Yes it has a basis in reality. It is no where near good enough as we speak, as you can see on everything from electrical cars and smartphones. Yes there is investment, but there is far more investment and tax subsidies in carbon based technologies... /wave fracking.

    We need better battery technology pure and simple. At the moment it is bulky and does not last that long.

    For example, regarding my question so simply asked and so obnoxiously responded to:

    As more go solar, grid users forced to pay up - SFGate

    Solar power's surging popularity in California is forcing non-solar homeowners to pay a larger share of maintaining the electricity grid, according to a long-awaited state study released Thursday.

    That additional cost could range from $75 million to $254 million per year, depending on how it's calculated. By 2020, it could range from $359 million to $1.1 billion per year, according to the study from the California Public Utilities Commission.

    The study analyzes a question at the heart of an ongoing fight between utility companies and the solar industry. And it could help reshape the way solar homeowners get paid for the excess electricity they send to the grid.
    I dont disagree with you. In Europe they also found out that it was a problem to allow people have solar panels for electricity, because these panels covered a huge portion of their need and more than often produced more than they needed. This meant they did not buy electricity and hence no VAT came into the state, and hence tax income went down.

    But as I see it, it is something we have to figure out. Nationalize the electrical grid for example so everyone pays for its maintenance and expansion over taxes. That would make it more fair, because like it or not, those that do use solar and sell to the net, do use the infrastructure also and should pay for using it.
    PeteEU

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    Re: U.S. court upholds FERC rules on electric grid planning

    Quote Originally Posted by PeteEU View Post
    Yes it has a basis in reality. It is no where near good enough as we speak, as you can see on everything from electrical cars and smartphones. Yes there is investment, but there is far more investment and tax subsidies in carbon based technologies... /wave fracking.

    We need better battery technology pure and simple. At the moment it is bulky and does not last that long.



    I dont disagree with you. In Europe they also found out that it was a problem to allow people have solar panels for electricity, because these panels covered a huge portion of their need and more than often produced more than they needed. This meant they did not buy electricity and hence no VAT came into the state, and hence tax income went down.

    But as I see it, it is something we have to figure out. Nationalize the electrical grid for example so everyone pays for its maintenance and expansion over taxes. That would make it more fair, because like it or not, those that do use solar and sell to the net, do use the infrastructure also and should pay for using it.
    Of course we have to figure it out, and that is being done.

    For example:

    State Grants of $14.3 Million Position Washington as Energy Storage Leader | Washington Clean Technology Alliance

    Avista Utilities, Snohomish PUD and Puget Sound Energy have been awarded $14.3 million in matching grants from the state’s new Clean Energy Fund to lead energy storage projects with ties to federally funded research at the Department of Energy’s Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. Gov. Jay Inslee and the state Department of Commerce announced the grants on Tuesday, July 8, at the Mukilteo, WA, facility of UniEnergy Technologies (UET). Snohomish PUD and Avista Utilities will install UET’s all-vanadium redox flow batteries as part of their projects. PNNL developed the battery technology with six years of funding from DOE’s Office of Electricity Delivery and Energy Reliability. -

    I believe at some point in the future, individual homes may very well have their own Fuel Cell based power plants. They would get delivery of Hydrogen as needed, just like many homes get oil or Propane today.

    The grid will still be needed, so a revenue stream will have to be identified... And then I asked a simple question, and the dogs came barking.

    Not sure why I was surprised. Lot's of indoctrinated people around willing to prove how much they are.

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    Re: U.S. court upholds FERC rules on electric grid planning

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    No you didn't answer the question. Perhaps you were too distracted by an opportunity to post something about the Koch Brothers.

    How is the grid going to be expanded and maintained if so many people are using very little of the product the grid provides?

    If a large portion of the people connected to the grid are meeting the majority of their energy needs by their own power generation, how do the grid operators generate enough revenue to maintain it?
    Why would the power grid need to be expanded if less people utilize it??

    The power grid is already public / private. It is maintained by private companies, publicly owned companies, local governments, state governments, and the feds.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: U.S. court upholds FERC rules on electric grid planning

    Quote Originally Posted by SouthernDemocrat View Post
    Why would the power grid need to be expanded if less people utilize it??

    The power grid is already public / private. It is maintained by private companies, publicly owned companies, local governments, state governments, and the feds.


    You know you got me there. I guess you're right. It's not needed at all.

    Unbelievable.

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    Re: U.S. court upholds FERC rules on electric grid planning

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post


    You know you got me there. I guess you're right. It's not needed at all.

    Unbelievable.
    What you seem to be ignoring is that many electrical utilities are publicly owned. Much of the grid was paid for with the public sector or via public / private partnerships. The power grid is basic infrastructure. It is absurd to think that a regulatory authority cannot require electrical utilities to coordinate on large scale power grid projects and on meeting emissions standards. What country on earth doesn't require that?

    Last year alone, electrical utilities spent $129,917,074 lobbying. In any given year they will outspend environmental groups by well over 100 to 1. They get 99.9999% of what they want and here they lost one. Cry me a river.
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: U.S. court upholds FERC rules on electric grid planning

    Yes, how about that solar power? There is a very modern, $2.2 billion solar electric facility at Ivanpah Dry Lake, in the Mojave Desert here in California. The concentrated beams have been burning up thousands of birds that fly through them--a smoke trail suddenly appears overhead, and the poor roasted thing plummets to the ground.

    Apparently this unforeseen problem is starting to set the Birkenstock Brigades against each other. The Audubon Society's feathers are good and ruffled, and it wants something done. One theory is that the bright reflections from the huge array of mirrors at the facility are attracting insects, which in turn are luring the birds to their doom. Imagine if an endangered bird were killed chasing an endangered insect, all because of solar power. It would be a daunting task to resolve the morality of that.

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    Re: U.S. court upholds FERC rules on electric grid planning

    Quote Originally Posted by ocean515 View Post
    Storing energy for later use is one of the cutting edge technologies being developed by the energy industry. It covers many different methodologies. Your claim about storage has no basis in reality.

    It is astonishing to me how many people think they are experts and go as far as to insult others, when their own ignorance is being so thoroughly displayed.

    For example, regarding my question so simply asked and so obnoxiously responded to:

    As more go solar, grid users forced to pay up - SFGate

    Solar power's surging popularity in California is forcing non-solar homeowners to pay a larger share of maintaining the electricity grid, according to a long-awaited state study released Thursday.

    That additional cost could range from $75 million to $254 million per year, depending on how it's calculated. By 2020, it could range from $359 million to $1.1 billion per year, according to the study from the California Public Utilities Commission.

    The study analyzes a question at the heart of an ongoing fight between utility companies and the solar industry. And it could help reshape the way solar homeowners get paid for the excess electricity they send to the grid.
    I don't suppose someone so clueless could understand that "studies" done by energy companies are prone to be slanted in their favor. Like the "studies" of cigarettes and health done by the tobacco companies in the 50's, we should take them with a grain of salt. The same goes with alternate energy studies done by the oil companies. What do you think the chances are that their "studies" will show that other sources of energy are practical before they sell every last drop of oil on the planet?
    Last edited by iguanaman; 08-20-14 at 07:14 PM.

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    Re: U.S. court upholds FERC rules on electric grid planning

    Quote Originally Posted by matchlight View Post
    Yes, how about that solar power? There is a very modern, $2.2 billion solar electric facility at Ivanpah Dry Lake, in the Mojave Desert here in California. The concentrated beams have been burning up thousands of birds that fly through them--a smoke trail suddenly appears overhead, and the poor roasted thing plummets to the ground.

    Apparently this unforeseen problem is starting to set the Birkenstock Brigades against each other. The Audubon Society's feathers are good and ruffled, and it wants something done. One theory is that the bright reflections from the huge array of mirrors at the facility are attracting insects, which in turn are luring the birds to their doom. Imagine if an endangered bird were killed chasing an endangered insect, all because of solar power. It would be a daunting task to resolve the morality of that.
    Ok, lets take worst case scenario with that solar plant. Are you saying that worst case scenario its worse than coal? Do you realize we blow up entire mountains to get coal? Do you realize that the worst environmental disasters in American history have been related to coal mining.

    Nuclear, wind, solar, hydro, and natural gas are all exponentially better than coal is in terms of the environment. Even if we could figure out some way to burn coal with zero emissions, we would still be turning places like this:

    grandview-spring.jpg

    To this, to get it:

    mtr.jpg
    "You're the only person that decides how far you'll go and what you're capable of." - Ben Saunders (Explorer and Endurance Athlete)

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    Re: U.S. court upholds FERC rules on electric grid planning

    I just put solar panels up in April through a 20 year lease. They are guaranteed to provide a certain amount of electricity over that time or the company issues me a credit. It will provide about 70% of my electric needs including the ability to sell my excess back to O&R. I still pay them $20 a month even though they have not supplied me with any electricity since May. With my kids going to college (and eventually leaving ) I should use less energy in the future. Unfortunately we have oil heat which is why the panels provide most of my electric needs.

    I have talked to employees of O&R regarding the panels. They are for it considering only about 10% of the homes in our area are good candidates for solar power, south facing roof, no trees, newer roof. The panels provide excess during the summer which will help the utilities during peak periods where they might have to pay a premium for additional power. It should also help outages on those extreme days where forced blackouts are sometimes needed. They also said the future will be where each home will be able to store their own excess and eventually no have to rely on the grid but that is a long way off. I would love to have a windmill as we are located on higher ground with quite a few windy days. Anyone else have experience with wind or solar? I would very much like to hear about it.
    Never let your sense of morals get in the way of doing what's right.
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