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U.S. court upholds FERC rules on electric grid planning

ocean515 said:
:roll:

You know you got me there. I guess you're right. It's not needed at all.

Unbelievable.
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What you seem to be ignoring is that many electrical utilities are publicly owned. Much of the grid was paid for with the public sector or via public / private partnerships. The power grid is basic infrastructure. It is absurd to think that a regulatory authority cannot require electrical utilities to coordinate on large scale power grid projects and on meeting emissions standards. What country on earth doesn't require that?

Last year alone, electrical utilities spent $129,917,074 lobbying. In any given year they will outspend environmental groups by well over 100 to 1. They get 99.9999% of what they want and here they lost one. Cry me a river.
 
Yes, how about that solar power? There is a very modern, $2.2 billion solar electric facility at Ivanpah Dry Lake, in the Mojave Desert here in California. The concentrated beams have been burning up thousands of birds that fly through them--a smoke trail suddenly appears overhead, and the poor roasted thing plummets to the ground.

Apparently this unforeseen problem is starting to set the Birkenstock Brigades against each other. The Audubon Society's feathers are good and ruffled, and it wants something done. One theory is that the bright reflections from the huge array of mirrors at the facility are attracting insects, which in turn are luring the birds to their doom. Imagine if an endangered bird were killed chasing an endangered insect, all because of solar power. It would be a daunting task to resolve the morality of that.
 
ocean515 said:
Storing energy for later use is one of the cutting edge technologies being developed by the energy industry. It covers many different methodologies. Your claim about storage has no basis in reality.

It is astonishing to me how many people think they are experts and go as far as to insult others, when their own ignorance is being so thoroughly displayed.

For example, regarding my question so simply asked and so obnoxiously responded to:

As more go solar, grid users forced to pay up - SFGate

Solar power's surging popularity in California is forcing non-solar homeowners to pay a larger share of maintaining the electricity grid, according to a long-awaited state study released Thursday.

That additional cost could range from $75 million to $254 million per year, depending on how it's calculated. By 2020, it could range from $359 million to $1.1 billion per year, according to the study from the California Public Utilities Commission.

The study analyzes a question at the heart of an ongoing fight between utility companies and the solar industry. And it could help reshape the way solar homeowners get paid for the excess electricity they send to the grid.​
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I don't suppose someone so clueless could understand that "studies" done by energy companies are prone to be slanted in their favor. Like the "studies" of cigarettes and health done by the tobacco companies in the 50's, we should take them with a grain of salt. The same goes with alternate energy studies done by the oil companies. What do you think the chances are that their "studies" will show that other sources of energy are practical before they sell every last drop of oil on the planet?
 
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matchlight said:
Yes, how about that solar power? There is a very modern, $2.2 billion solar electric facility at Ivanpah Dry Lake, in the Mojave Desert here in California. The concentrated beams have been burning up thousands of birds that fly through them--a smoke trail suddenly appears overhead, and the poor roasted thing plummets to the ground.

Apparently this unforeseen problem is starting to set the Birkenstock Brigades against each other. The Audubon Society's feathers are good and ruffled, and it wants something done. One theory is that the bright reflections from the huge array of mirrors at the facility are attracting insects, which in turn are luring the birds to their doom. Imagine if an endangered bird were killed chasing an endangered insect, all because of solar power. It would be a daunting task to resolve the morality of that.
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Ok, lets take worst case scenario with that solar plant. Are you saying that worst case scenario its worse than coal? Do you realize we blow up entire mountains to get coal? Do you realize that the worst environmental disasters in American history have been related to coal mining.

Nuclear, wind, solar, hydro, and natural gas are all exponentially better than coal is in terms of the environment. Even if we could figure out some way to burn coal with zero emissions, we would still be turning places like this:

grandview-spring.jpg

To this, to get it:

mtr.jpg
 
I just put solar panels up in April through a 20 year lease. They are guaranteed to provide a certain amount of electricity over that time or the company issues me a credit. It will provide about 70% of my electric needs including the ability to sell my excess back to O&R. I still pay them $20 a month even though they have not supplied me with any electricity since May. With my kids going to college (and eventually leaving :shock:) I should use less energy in the future. Unfortunately we have oil heat which is why the panels provide most of my electric needs.

I have talked to employees of O&R regarding the panels. They are for it considering only about 10% of the homes in our area are good candidates for solar power, south facing roof, no trees, newer roof. The panels provide excess during the summer which will help the utilities during peak periods where they might have to pay a premium for additional power. It should also help outages on those extreme days where forced blackouts are sometimes needed. They also said the future will be where each home will be able to store their own excess and eventually no have to rely on the grid but that is a long way off. I would love to have a windmill as we are located on higher ground with quite a few windy days. Anyone else have experience with wind or solar? I would very much like to hear about it.
 
ocean515 said:
Of course we have to figure it out, and that is being done.

For example:

State Grants of $14.3 Million Position Washington as Energy Storage Leader | Washington Clean Technology Alliance
Avista Utilities, Snohomish PUD and Puget Sound Energy have been awarded $14.3 million in matching grants from the state’s new Clean Energy Fund to lead energy storage projects with ties to federally funded research at the Department of Energy’s Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. Gov. Jay Inslee and the state Department of Commerce announced the grants on Tuesday, July 8, at the Mukilteo, WA, facility of UniEnergy Technologies (UET). Snohomish PUD and Avista Utilities will install UET’s all-vanadium redox flow batteries as part of their projects. PNNL developed the battery technology with six years of funding from DOE’s Office of Electricity Delivery and Energy Reliability. -​

I believe at some point in the future, individual homes may very well have their own Fuel Cell based power plants. They would get delivery of Hydrogen as needed, just like many homes get oil or Propane today.

The grid will still be needed, so a revenue stream will have to be identified... And then I asked a simple question, and the dogs came barking.

Not sure why I was surprised. Lot's of indoctrinated people around willing to prove how much they are.
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And as I said it is no where near what is pumped into fossil fuel R&D. 14 million dollars is peanuts.
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
What you seem to be ignoring is that many electrical utilities are publicly owned. Much of the grid was paid for with the public sector or via public / private partnerships. The power grid is basic infrastructure. It is absurd to think that a regulatory authority cannot require electrical utilities to coordinate on large scale power grid projects and on meeting emissions standards. What country on earth doesn't require that?

Last year alone, electrical utilities spent $129,917,074 lobbying. In any given year they will outspend environmental groups by well over 100 to 1. They get 99.9999% of what they want and here they lost one. Cry me a river.
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Well, what you seem to want to focus on is meaningless in the long term. Thankfully smarter people are looking at the issue so that all can benefit. One can only hope that enviros with blinders on are completely ignored.
 
iguanaman said:
I don't suppose someone so clueless could understand that "studies" done by energy companies are prone to be slanted in their favor. Like the "studies" of cigarettes and health done by the tobacco companies in the 50's, we should take them with a grain of salt. The same goes with alternate energy studies done by the oil companies. What do you think the chances are that their "studies" will show that other sources of energy are practical before they sell every last drop of oil on the planet?
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I don't suppose someone who can't even grasp the importance of the issue would have anything reasonable to add to the conversation. One thing that appears evident is that enviros don't have facts, they just have hyperbole.

Better the industry pay attention to rational ideas than irrational ideologues.
 
danarhea said:
I had been following this case for some time. Among those opposed to the FERC order was the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), which crafted legislation in a number of states that outlawed people from sending their excess solar or wind energy to the grid, and which also passed laws taxing solar and wind generation by citizens who installed wind and / or solar on their own property, which purpose was to create more profit for the oil, gas, and coal industries, at the expense of everyone else. This roadblock has now been removed, in addition to the planning requirement, which was the main thrust of the rule, with the result that we will burning less coal in the future, and also will take another step towards independence from Middle East oil. I fully support this decision. After all, Germany is only the size of Texas, and is not in a great zone for either solar or wind, but has more than 10 times the renewable energy of the entire United States. This is ridiculous...... Well, maybe not so ridiculous a few years from now, when we surpass them.

Article is here.
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This is just idiotic. Friken unbelievable.

Its more leftist nonsense that will impact the poor and middle class disproportionately.
 
PeteEU said:
And as I said it is no where near what is pumped into fossil fuel R&D. 14 million dollars is peanuts.
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It's just one example. Billions are being spent on new energy storage technology. A flow battery is a unique storage device using liquid as a cathode and anode. In the end, it will be a combination of fossil, and some form of renewable, that will power the world.
 
PeteEU said:
And as I said it is no where near what is pumped into fossil fuel R&D. 14 million dollars is peanuts.
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How much did Germany " pump into green energy " R and D before they decided to start that complete failure of a alternative energy revolution ?

Becase now their citizens pay 300 percent more for their electricity than the average American citizen does and their air is dirtier ( they have to burn huge amounts of Coal ) than it was before they STUPIDLY decided to run Germany 100 percent on renewable energy technology.
 
Fenton said:
How much did Germany " pump into green energy " R and D before they decided to start that complete failure of a alternative energy revolution ?

Becase now their citizens pay 300 percent more for their electricity than the average American citizen does and their air is dirtier ( they have to burn huge amounts of Coal ) than it was before they STUPIDLY decided to run Germany 100 percent on renewable energy technology.
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With the Politically Correct patrol out for blood, hunting for anything that doesn't toe their line, it's no wonder illogical, irrational approaches are initiated.

As has been evidenced by comments on this thread, rational is less important than ideological.
 
ocean515 said:
It's just one example. Billions are being spent on new energy storage technology. A flow battery is a unique storage device using liquid as a cathode and anode. In the end, it will be a combination of fossil, and some form of renewable, that will power the world.
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Yes and hundreds of billions are being given in tax breaks and subsidies to oil and coal industries to prolong our addiction to their products... my point is we use far far more on oil and coal R&D than on alternative energies and storage tech.. combined.
 
PeteEU said:
Yes and hundreds of billions are being given in tax breaks and subsidies to oil and coal industries to prolong our addiction to their products... my point is we use far far more on oil and coal R&D than on alternative energies and storage tech.. combined.
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Probably best to maintain a supply of what the world requires to keep working at this point in time, than let supplies disappear before a global conversion to alternatives is complete.
 
Fenton said:
How much did Germany " pump into green energy " R and D before they decided to start that complete failure of a alternative energy revolution ?
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You been reading too many right wing blogs funded by the oil and coal industry..

Becase now their citizens pay 300 percent more for their electricity than the average American citizen does and their air is dirtier ( they have to burn huge amounts of Coal ) than it was before they STUPIDLY decided to run Germany 100 percent on renewable energy technology.
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Again miss-information from the usual sources.

First of all taxes. Are they included in or not in the numbers. Now on Germany, almost 50% of the consumer price is taxes as of 2013. So when you say German electricity prices are 300% higher than US.. do those prices include taxes? How much taxes do US consumers pay on their electricity?

According to Eurostat

Electricity and natural gas price statistics - Statistics Explained

Germans paid 29,4 euro cents per kWh.
Americans pay differently depending on where they live, but the average is 12.84 US cents per kWh according to the Department of Energy.

Now the currency conversion comes into it.

Germans pay 39 cents per kWh vs Americans 12.8 cents per kWH. Big difference no? Well no, because the German taxes account for almost 50% of the consumer price. Now I suspect there are taxes on electricity in the US too, but that is very dependent on what state we are talking about so an actual comparison is hard to do, but in no way are the taxes 50% of the price or even close to that. So if we take 50% of the german price we get 20 cents.. and lets be large and take off 3 cents.. that is at best 100% more, not 300% more.

And then there is the other factor.. efficiency and actual consumption. All the statistics out there show that the US, uses almost double the amount per capita than that of Germany.. and dont tell me that the US is more "industrialized" than Germany..

So the Germans might pay more for electricity, but they also consume half that of the US, which means the actual cost is actually about the same... go figure!

At the end of the day this has to do with the future not here and now. Germany, like many European countries have invested in the future, just as they invested in more fuel efficient cars 30 years ago. The latter paid off big time when oil hit 150 dollars a barrel and Americans were screaming in pain over the price of petrol.

The only problem is of course the taxes.. energy is a big tax generator for most European countries, and the less energy we use or generate ourselves, the less we buy and hence the less we pay in taxes.. and that factor is holding back European countries.. not price, not technology, but having to deal with a smaller tax income.
 
ocean515 said:
Probably best to maintain a supply of what the world requires to keep working at this point in time, than let supplies disappear before a global conversion to alternatives is complete.
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I would agree if it was not for the fact that the energy companies are raking in massive profits on top of that. Take away their subsidies and tax breaks, and they still would have insane profits...
 
PeteEU said:
I would agree if it was not for the fact that the energy companies are raking in massive profits on top of that. Take away their subsidies and tax breaks, and they still would have insane profits...
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What would you do as a company, if your business model is being regulated out of existence? Plan for the future?

Probably a good idea, especially when so many pension funds, especially public employee pension funds, are tied to the profits your company generates.
 
ocean515 said:
Well, what you seem to want to focus on is meaningless in the long term. Thankfully smarter people are looking at the issue so that all can benefit. One can only hope that enviros with blinders on are completely ignored.
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What an obtuse and meaningless response. Who are these "smarter people"? Lobbyists?
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
What an obtuse and meaningless response. Who are these "smarter people"? Lobbyists?
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Engineers and scientists. They are working on integration and application.

As you're proving, others are more concerned with ideology and agenda. Those tend to be poor conductors of energy, no matter the source.
 
ocean515 said:
Engineers and scientists. They are working on integration and application.

As you're proving, others are more concerned with ideology and agenda. Those tend to be poor conductors of energy, no matter the source.
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So what is wrong with federal regulators requiring the engineers and scientists with KCPL coordinate with Ameren Electric when working on large scale grid projects?
 
SouthernDemocrat said:
So what is wrong with federal regulators requiring the engineers and scientists with KCPL coordinate with Ameren Electric when working on large scale grid projects?
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Nothing at all.

The gross and obnoxious reaction by the usual suspects on this thread came from a simple question directed to someone who mentioned they had been following the case. Assuming them to be informed, and seeing the topic included electric grid planning, I asked if there were any components related to grid updating/expansion/maintenance in the FERC program.

This simple question unleashed a torrent of hyper-partisan regurgitation that has been joined into by others.

Really pointless, but I suppose exposing the unreasonable reactionary ignorance of those pushing an agenda is a good thing. Perhaps you didn't mean to add to the evidence.
 
PeteEU said:
You been reading too many right wing blogs funded by the oil and coal industry..



Again miss-information from the usual sources.

First of all taxes. Are they included in or not in the numbers. Now on Germany, almost 50% of the consumer price is taxes as of 2013. So when you say German electricity prices are 300% higher than US.. do those prices include taxes? How much taxes do US consumers pay on their electricity?

According to Eurostat

Electricity and natural gas price statistics - Statistics Explained

Germans paid 29,4 euro cents per kWh.
Americans pay differently depending on where they live, but the average is 12.84 US cents per kWh according to the Department of Energy.

Now the currency conversion comes into it.

Germans pay 39 cents per kWh vs Americans 12.8 cents per kWH. Big difference no? Well no, because the German taxes account for almost 50% of the consumer price. Now I suspect there are taxes on electricity in the US too, but that is very dependent on what state we are talking about so an actual comparison is hard to do, but in no way are the taxes 50% of the price or even close to that. So if we take 50% of the german price we get 20 cents.. and lets be large and take off 3 cents.. that is at best 100% more, not 300% more.

And then there is the other factor.. efficiency and actual consumption. All the statistics out there show that the US, uses almost double the amount per capita than that of Germany.. and dont tell me that the US is more "industrialized" than Germany..

So the Germans might pay more for electricity, but they also consume half that of the US, which means the actual cost is actually about the same... go figure!

At the end of the day this has to do with the future not here and now. Germany, like many European countries have invested in the future, just as they invested in more fuel efficient cars 30 years ago. The latter paid off big time when oil hit 150 dollars a barrel and Americans were screaming in pain over the price of petrol.

The only problem is of course the taxes.. energy is a big tax generator for most European countries, and the less energy we use or generate ourselves, the less we buy and hence the less we pay in taxes.. and that factor is holding back European countries.. not price, not technology, but having to deal with a smaller tax income.
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I noticed you left out the German Finance Minister admitting to Germany's " green revolution " being on the verge of Total failure ?

And the fact that Germany is building NEW Coal fired plants as fast a possible to account for their stupidity.


So " alternative energy works " IF you burn huge amounts of Coal and subsidize the hell out of via attacking the discretionary income of your middle and lower class citizens.
 
PeteEU said:
I would agree if it was not for the fact that the energy companies are raking in massive profits on top of that. Take away their subsidies and tax breaks, and they still would have insane profits...
Click to expand...


Name ONE subsidy that is being extended out to ANY Oil Company in America.

I want the specific outlay of funds from the Treasury in dollar amounts
 
Fenton said:
Name ONE subsidy that is being extended out to ANY Oil Company in America.

I want the specific outlay of funds from the Treasury in dollar amounts
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Depletion.
 
Fenton said:
I noticed you left out the German Finance Minister admitting to Germany's " green revolution " being on the verge of Total failure ?
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That is not what he said. But nice try.

And the fact that Germany is building NEW Coal fired plants as fast a possible to account for their stupidity.
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And there is a reason for that... but I guess you dont know that reason..

So " alternative energy works " IF you burn huge amounts of Coal and subsidize the hell out of via attacking the discretionary income of your middle and lower class citizens.
Click to expand...

Again you are reading the coal and oil industries talking points without taking a critical look at them.
 
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