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ISIS massacres 90 Yazidis in Northern Iraq

and for them.
Because I doubt anyone believe Libya will ever be better than it was.

Three years after Gaddafi, Libya is imploding into chaos and violence
World View: Its government has no real power; militias are ever more entrenched, and now the state itself is under threat.


http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...mploding-into-chaos-and-violence-9194697.html


Hussein, Mubarak, Gaddafi, Assad, who next. The ME is in flames and the apologists of US policy are patting themselves on the back. I swear we're in trouble.
 
What's the conflict, the SOD was quite belligerent/arrogant in his 2007 statement and he's pursuing the policy now. Seems consistent enough to me.


Btw, you quoted it, what do you have to say about Eisenhower's NST telling him that its Americas destructive policies in the ME that cause the people to hate us. I didn't even need to find that, to understand this myself, its that damn obvious!

I think the supply of oil to the US was more secure with the Shah, Moubarak and even Saddam in charge. I think the Ottomans showed the only way to get things done is to not tolerate the kind of crap we're seeing today. In an ideal world, I'd rather have us do the administrating, and cut out guys like Maliki and Karzai.
 
The average Iraqi DOES value human rights and justice. This is your disconnect from reality. Everywhere I've been, all around the world, my travels have taught me: people are people.

Presuming the majority of Iraqis are terrorists is nonsense. Do you not understand oppression?

I understand we are throwing American money and life down a hole
 
It may seem to you and to me as slaves but it's their way of living. We should get deal with it.

Look at the happy slaves frolicking about the plantation. They're so content. Why who are we to take away the joy of care-free living and the social position they clearly adore!

Yeah, I've heard that before.
 
You deny the existence of development and that Libya will experience it? Libya got better the moment Qaddafi left power.

Freedom is bad for people? How naive.

I don't know if I can say that across the board though. I guess it all depends on what they want out of the government. If they are wanting a religious government, then countries like Egypt, Palestine, and Lebanon are what they want I suppose, and may be happy with. If the rebels did end up defeating Assad, we'd have a radical government there as well. The only bright spot is Tunisia, but that's because there going for the more secular approach, and away from this religious nonsense.

• There was no electricity bills in Libya; electricity was free … for all its citizens.
• There was no interest on loans, banks in Libya were state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.
• If a Libyan was unable to find employment after graduation, the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.
• Should Libyans want to take up a farming career, they receive farm land, a house, equipment, seed and livestock to kick start their farms –this was all for free.
• Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.
• A home was considered a human right in Libya. (In Qaddafi’s Green Book it states: “The house is a basic need of both the individual and the family, therefore it should not be owned by others.”)
• All newlyweds in Libya would receive 60,000 Dinar (US$ 50,000 ) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start a family.
• A portion of Libyan oil sales is or was credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
• A mother who gives birth to a child would receive US $5,000.
• When a Libyan buys a car, the government would subsidizes 50% of the price.
• The price of petrol in Libya was $0.14 per liter.
• For $ 0.15, a Libyan local could purchase 40 loaves of bread.
• Education and medical treatments was all free in Libya. Libya can boast one of the finest health care systems in the Arab and African World. All people have access to doctors, hospitals, clinics and medicines, completely free of charge.
• If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government would fund them to go abroad for it – not only free but they get US $2,300/month accommodation and car allowance.
• 25% of Libyans had a university degree. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is 87%.
• Libya had no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion – though much of this is now frozen globally.
___________________________________________________________________________________
According to the United Nations Development Programme, Libya ranked first in Africa (53 globally) on the Human Development Index ‑ ahead of Saudi Arabia at 55, Iran at 70, South Africa at 73, Jordan at 82, Egypt at 101, Indonesia at 108, India at 119, Afghanistan at 155.


The fundamental difference between western democratic systems and the Jamahiriya's direct democracy is that in Libya citizens were given the chance to contribute directly to the decision-making process, not merely through elected representatives. Hence, all Libyans were allowed to voice their views directly – not in one parliament of only a few hundred elite politicians – but in hundreds of committees attended by tens of thousands of ordinary citizens. Far from being a military dictatorship, Libya under Mr. Gaddafi was Africa 's most prospero us democracy.

Democracy is not merely about elections or political parties. True democracy is also about equal opportunity through education and the right to life through access to health care.
So talking about human rights, where were more human rights, in Libya or in USA/West??
Because imo in USA and West there are no human rights. Education and health care are a privilege now.
 
Look at the happy slaves frolicking about the plantation. They're so content. Why who are we to take away the joy of care-free living and the social position they clearly adore!

Yeah, I've heard that before.
Well, I tried to explain further below.
But the way I see is that you really don't know how people live there. You still believe the Libyan people were in danger of a brutal dictatorship and that's the reason it was bombed.

For you any country who doesn't have a democracy like US/West is a dictatorship, period.

The fundamental difference between western democratic systems and the Jamahiriya's direct democracy is that in Libya citizens were given the chance to contribute directly to the decision-making process, not merely through elected representatives. Hence, all Libyans were allowed to voice their views directly – not in one parliament of only a few hundred elite politicians – but in hundreds of committees attended by tens of thousands of ordinary citizens. Far from being a military dictatorship, Libya under Mr. Gaddafi was Africa 's most prospero us democracy.

Democracy is not merely about elections or political parties. True democracy is also about equal opportunity through education and the right to life through access to health care.
So talking about human rights, where were more human rights, in Libya or in USA/West??
Because imo in USA and West there are no human rights. Education and health care are a privilege now.
 
I understand we are throwing American money and life down a hole

Millions of people disagree with you. I guess they're all just "crazy libtards" or something like that. I'm sure there's no substance to their position at all. Sure, drive yourself insane by ignoring the logic and reason of half the population. All the people that volunteer, all the representatives that vote, all the people that vote for those representatives and otherwise. All crazy.

It's a grand conspiracy.
 
• there was no electricity bills in libya; electricity was free … for all its citizens.
• there was no interest on loans, banks in libya were state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.
• if a libyan was unable to find employment after graduation, the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.
• should libyans want to take up a farming career, they receive farm land, a house, equipment, seed and livestock to kick start their farms –this was all for free.
• gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the great man-made river project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.
• a home was considered a human right in libya. (in qaddafi’s green book it states: “the house is a basic need of both the individual and the family, therefore it should not be owned by others.”)
• all newlyweds in libya would receive 60,000 dinar (us$ 50,000 ) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start a family.
• a portion of libyan oil sales is or was credited directly to the bank accounts of all libyan citizens.
• a mother who gives birth to a child would receive us $5,000.
• when a libyan buys a car, the government would subsidizes 50% of the price.
• the price of petrol in libya was $0.14 per liter.
• for $ 0.15, a libyan local could purchase 40 loaves of bread.
• education and medical treatments was all free in libya. Libya can boast one of the finest health care systems in the arab and african world. All people have access to doctors, hospitals, clinics and medicines, completely free of charge.
• if libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in libya, the government would fund them to go abroad for it – not only free but they get us $2,300/month accommodation and car allowance.
• 25% of libyans had a university degree. Before gaddafi only 25% of libyans were literate. Today the figure is 87%.
• libya had no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion – though much of this is now frozen globally.
___________________________________________________________________________________
according to the united nations development programme, libya ranked first in africa (53 globally) on the human development index ‑ ahead of saudi arabia at 55, iran at 70, south africa at 73, jordan at 82, egypt at 101, indonesia at 108, india at 119, afghanistan at 155.


the fundamental difference between western democratic systems and the jamahiriya's direct democracy is that in libya citizens were given the chance to contribute directly to the decision-making process, not merely through elected representatives. Hence, all libyans were allowed to voice their views directly – not in one parliament of only a few hundred elite politicians – but in hundreds of committees attended by tens of thousands of ordinary citizens. Far from being a military dictatorship, libya under mr. Gaddafi was africa 's most prospero us democracy.

democracy is not merely about elections or political parties. True democracy is also about equal opportunity through education and the right to life through access to health care.
So talking about human rights, where were more human rights, in libya or in usa/west??
Because imo in usa and west there are no human rights. Education and health care are a privilege now.

that! Is too cool.
 
• There was no electricity bills in Libya; electricity was free … for all its citizens.
• There was no interest on loans, banks in Libya were state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.
• If a Libyan was unable to find employment after graduation, the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.
• Should Libyans want to take up a farming career, they receive farm land, a house, equipment, seed and livestock to kick start their farms –this was all for free.
• Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.
• A home was considered a human right in Libya. (In Qaddafi’s Green Book it states: “The house is a basic need of both the individual and the family, therefore it should not be owned by others.”)
• All newlyweds in Libya would receive 60,000 Dinar (US$ 50,000 ) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start a family.
• A portion of Libyan oil sales is or was credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
• A mother who gives birth to a child would receive US $5,000.
• When a Libyan buys a car, the government would subsidizes 50% of the price.
• The price of petrol in Libya was $0.14 per liter.
• For $ 0.15, a Libyan local could purchase 40 loaves of bread.
• Education and medical treatments was all free in Libya. Libya can boast one of the finest health care systems in the Arab and African World. All people have access to doctors, hospitals, clinics and medicines, completely free of charge.
• If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government would fund them to go abroad for it – not only free but they get US $2,300/month accommodation and car allowance.
• 25% of Libyans had a university degree. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is 87%.
• Libya had no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion – though much of this is now frozen globally.
___________________________________________________________________________________
According to the United Nations Development Programme, Libya ranked first in Africa (53 globally) on the Human Development Index ‑ ahead of Saudi Arabia at 55, Iran at 70, South Africa at 73, Jordan at 82, Egypt at 101, Indonesia at 108, India at 119, Afghanistan at 155.


The fundamental difference between western democratic systems and the Jamahiriya's direct democracy is that in Libya citizens were given the chance to contribute directly to the decision-making process, not merely through elected representatives. Hence, all Libyans were allowed to voice their views directly – not in one parliament of only a few hundred elite politicians – but in hundreds of committees attended by tens of thousands of ordinary citizens. Far from being a military dictatorship, Libya under Mr. Gaddafi was Africa 's most prospero us democracy.

Democracy is not merely about elections or political parties. True democracy is also about equal opportunity through education and the right to life through access to health care.
So talking about human rights, where were more human rights, in Libya or in USA/West??
Because imo in USA and West there are no human rights. Education and health care are a privilege now.

While all the above may be true, it still may not make them happy. Which obviously some of them weren't, or we wouldn't of had the Libyan Civil war would we? Between you and me, I do think they were better off with Qaddafi
 
Millions of people disagree with you. I guess they're all just "crazy libtards" or something like that. I'm sure there's no substance to their position at all. Sure, drive yourself insane by ignoring the logic and reason of half the population. All the people that volunteer, all the representatives that vote, all the people that vote for those representatives and otherwise. All crazy.

It's a grand conspiracy.

What are you talking about?
 
But the way I see is that you really don't know how people live there.

Nihilism? That's your argument?

You still believe the Libyan people were in danger of a brutal dictatorship and that's the reason it was bombed.

In danger of? They were living under a brutal dictatorship, and he was bonkers.

For you any country who doesn't have a democracy like US/West is a dictatorship, period.

Are you claiming Libya was not a dictatorship?
 
What are you talking about?

You're so sure it's a waste. Well, what about the half of the population that disagrees with you? Are they crazy or in a conspiracy. If it's not neither of those, then your absolutism is, in fact, BS. To believe nothing is accomplished by removing a genocidal dictator is the height of not giving a **** about anyone else.

So, are your political opponents crazy or conspirators? Or... maybe all the stupid people are against you. What is it.
 
Nihilism? That's your argument?

In danger of? They were living under a brutal dictatorship, and he was bonkers.

Are you claiming Libya was not a dictatorship?

All I know is that those women of his Amazonian Bodyguard can oppress me all day long.
 
While all the above may be true, it still may not make them happy. Which obviously some of them weren't, or we wouldn't of had the Libyan Civil war would we? Between you and me, I do think they were better off with Qaddafi

We have rebels everywhere, you know.
You do not call rebels in Ukraine as unhappy with Ukraine leader but you call them rebels supported by Russia.
Such rebels were even in Libya.

At the massive rally in Green Square there were over 1.7 million Libyan people to oppose the bombarding by NATO. Did NATO put in doubt their happiness? - NO
Even if Libyan weren't happy, they never wanted to change by that way.
 
All I know is that those women of his Amazonian Bodyguard can oppress me all day long.

They were recently abused, raped, etc. Not real useful as a dom.
 
Even if Libyan weren't happy, they never wanted to change by that way.

What happened to "But the way I see is that you really don't know how people live there.". One-way nihilism? That's convenient. You get to spew any crap you want about them and we're to take it for fact. But presuming women and minorities are unhappy beneath dictatorship is ~"well, we don't know that". Ludicrous.
 
You're so sure it's a waste. Well, what about the half of the population that disagrees with you? Are they crazy or in a conspiracy. If it's not neither of those, then your absolutism is, in fact, BS. To believe nothing is accomplished by removing a genocidal dictator is the height of not giving a **** about anyone else.

So, are your political opponents crazy or conspirators? Or... maybe all the stupid people are against you. What is it.

they are entitled to their opinion, i see nothing wrong with that.
 
Are you claiming Libya was not a dictatorship?
Do you remember who was Gadaff? How many friends he had?

From to 2009 to 2010, he become a dictator, puff.
C'mon Eco.
 
While all the above may be true, it still may not make them happy. Which obviously some of them weren't, or we wouldn't of had the Libyan Civil war would we? Between you and me, I do think they were better off with Qaddafi

Unbelievable. Just fantastic that you'd have that to say. I'd call you a liar if you told me you had all that and weren't happy.
 
Unbelievable. Just fantastic that you'd have that to say. I'd call you a liar if you told me you had all that and weren't happy.

You honestly believe Libya was a benevolent dictatorship. Amazing.
 

Don't make that face Eco.
Human right is not just the free speech.
In your country no one care for you if you haven't a health care card (or how it is called there) or some $$$.
 
they are entitled to their opinion, i see nothing wrong with that.

Your position assumes their opinion has no basis in fact. So they're either crazy, conspirators or all the stupid people.
 
We have rebels everywhere, you know.
You do not call rebels in Ukraine as unhappy with Ukraine leader but you call them rebels supported by Russia.
Such rebels were even in Libya.

At the massive rally in Green Square there were over 1.7 million Libyan people to oppose the bombarding by NATO. Did NATO put in doubt their happiness? - NO
Even if Libyan weren't happy, they never wanted to change by that way.

You know, I've always put an asterisk when we are talking about dictators and rallies. We don't know how much of that was genuine. Regardless though, we never would of gotten involved if there wasn't the refugee crisis that was coming from Lybia. That implies a lot of people weren't happy there... doesn't it? As I recall though, didn't it have to do with tribes or something? Like he was great for the people under his rule, but those out east were from a different tribe or something. Sort of like Iraq with Saddam, it was great for the Sunnis but not so much for the Kurds and the Shia.

They were recently abused, raped, etc. Not real useful as a dom.

Why you gotta do that to me Eco?

For the record, just because I like a strong and confident woman, doesn't mean I want a dom. I guess you're for the weak and wimpy ones huh?
 
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