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Navy reverses Bible ban

matchlight said:
In any hotel room where I've ever seen a Gideon Bible, it was tucked away out of sight in a drawer. Assuming that's also where they were in this case, this doesn't even begin to be an unconstitutional endorsement of Christianity by the Navy. Hell, it wasn't unconstitutional for Ohio to let the Ku Klux Klan put up a large Christian cross, and nearby a Klan cross, on public land right across from the state capitol building. Don't try to tell me the Navy can't put a damn Gideon bible in each room of a lodge.

Having seen hundreds of soi-disant liberals show their abysmal ignorance of constitutional law, I'm never surprised to see the most trivial thing start them shrieking about someone's supposed constitutional rights. But their concern about those rights is curiously selective. Their outrage over this Bible issue, just like their outrage over the Hobby Lobby decision, shows what disdain they have for the free exercise of religion.
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What "outrage" over the "Bible issue"?
 
Crosscheck said:
Then at sometime in the future when you open that drawer and alongside the Gideons Bible, is the Torah, Koran, Apocrypha, Tripitakas, Bhagavad Gita, Avesta, Book of Mormon, and the Wiccan Bible you will not be upset.

Because the government couldn't accept one and not all the rest as long as someone provided them free of cost.
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If you can find a Wiccan Bible, I'll be highly impressed since such a creature doesn't exist, anymore than an Islamic Bible exists. For that matter I'd be impressed if you could find a mass produced Book of Shadows. A real one, not a notebook dressed up for making your own or the "how to" book that uses the name as a title.

TheDemSocialist said:
A bible should not be provided to you period if you are working for the United States Federal Government.
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Maybe you ought to rethink that statement. Either it is too all inclusive or you are making an assumption that you are not putting out. Are you saying that a person who is working for the government, military or otherwise, should not even be provided a bible from the church that they attend? Are you insinuating that a government working shouldn't even be associated with a religion maybe?

ObamacareFail said:
Such a silly strawman argument. The hotels wisely choose to accept the Gideons bible based on the fact that the majority of Americans are Christians. No offense intended to all other religions.
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That is an assumption that cannot be currently proven as no other organization provides a holy texts book to hotels.
 
maquiscat said:
Are you insinuating that a government working shouldn't even be associated with a religion maybe?
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I think I made it pretty clear. A government shouldn't be involved in no way with a certain religion, period.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
I think I made it pretty clear. A government shouldn't be involved in no way with a certain religion, period.
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So while I was in the Navy I should never have been allowed to step into a church and worship? Nor should a pagan ever be allowed to attend a Circle?

Edit: I just noticed the quote of mine in your post and "working" should be "worker". Apologies for the typo in the original post.
 
The government shouldn't be facilitating proselytising by any religion. You want to read a bible, bring one with you, or go to the Library's religion section.
 
Manc Skipper said:
The government shouldn't be facilitating proselytising by any religion. You want to read a bible, bring one with you, or go to the Library's religion section.
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They aren't facilitating, they're simply allowing donations.

So far as I can see it would only become an issue if they didn't allow donations of another religious book for the same purpose.
 
Personally hoping that the Saudis donate 300 million Korans to all the US hotels rooms currently receiving free donated bibles, and watch the FAUX News **** storm. It would be most amusing to watch the SCOTUS force any hotel chain with US rooms to accept all privately donated religious texts including scientology, jw'ism and mormonism. Every room would need an 8ft bookcase.

I also wonder about all the people in this thread who have no problem with these books in the Navy Lodges and their feelings about privately donated 10 Commandments monuments on courthouse lawns. We already know what SCOTUS thinks of them.

These bibles, or any other religious texts, are an equivalent to the monuments. It does not matter that they are donated.
Why stop at bibles and Lodges? Why not hand out privately donated crucifixes in basic? You don't have to wear them! Even if 80% of your buddies in the outfit do chose to.

from Gideons.ca
Why We Distribute Bibles

Simply stated, we believe that the Bible contains a message of hope and benefit from God for every person on earth and our objective is to share that message through personal witnessing and placing Bibles and New Testaments into people’s hands. We believe that God’s Word can change lives.
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The Gideons were donating to public schools but that was shot down by SCOTUS.

This is proselytizing pure and simple. And the government is complicit by allowing them in every room of the Lodges. Maybe there should a 'reading room' where all religious texts and anti-religious texts are located, so interested parties could find what they need. We all know that will never fly because this is not about freedom of religion, it is about freedom to proselytize. Proselytize the religion of the majority.

The very reason for the existence of the 1st is to prevent proselytizing to, or worse forcible conversion of, the minorities to the majority religion.
There are plenty of brutal historical examples which lead to the creation of the 1st so we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.
 
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spud_meister said:
What if a group started donating Communist Manifesto's to the Navy. Would anyone object if they were placed in rooms?
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Yeah, let's put one in every room.
 
RogueWarrior said:
Personally hoping that the Saudis donate 300 million Korans to all the US hotels rooms currently receiving free donated bibles, and watch the FAUX News **** storm. It would be most amusing to watch the SCOTUS force any hotel chain with US rooms to accept all privately donated religious texts including scientology, jw'ism and mormonism. Every room would need an 8ft bookcase.
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You're off the point here. It's been noted by both sides that the private hotels can accept or reject any religious material they want for their rooms. We're discussing specifically government run facilities, using the Navy Lodge as a primary example.

I also wonder about all the people in this thread who have no problem with these books in the Navy Lodges and their feelings about privately donated 10 Commandments monuments on courthouse lawns. We already know what SCOTUS thinks of them.
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Do you have a link to where a privately donated one was declared unconstitional? The only ones I was aware of were local city and county purchased ones, or ones ordered by the local level but then the seller never bother to charge them

This is proselytizing pure and simple.
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No one has said otherwise. It is not the Navy Lodge doing so but the Giddions. But indeed it is proselytizing.

... this is not about freedom of religion, it is about freedom to proselytize. Proselytize the religion of the majority.
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Freedom to proselytize is part of freedom of religion. The minority religions are quite free to do the same thing.

The very reason for the existence of the 1st is to prevent proselytizing to, or worse forcible conversion of, the minorities to the majority religion.
There are plenty of brutal historical examples which lead to the creation of the 1st so we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.
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You are correct of course on the forced conversion. However let's look at the definition of proselytizing:

pros·e·lyt·ize ˈpräsələˌtīz/
verb

convert or attempt to convert (someone) from one religion, belief, or opinion to another.
"the program did have a tremendous evangelical effect, proselytizing many"
synonyms: evangelize, convert, save, redeem, win over, preach (to), recruit, act as a missionary
"I'm not here to proselytize"

advocate or promote (a belief or course of action).
"Davis wanted to share his concept and proselytize his ideas"
synonyms: promote, advocate, champion, advance, further, spread, proclaim, peddle, preach, endorse, urge, recommend, boost
"he wanted to proselytize his ideas"
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We all proselytize all the time trying to change people's minds about this or that. There is no protection from this. It's a part of normal social interaction. We have our protections from being forced to change our minds and we have our freedoms to walk away from those who are trying to get us to change our positions. Proselytizing is as much a part of our freedom of speech as our freedom of religion.
 
Crosscheck said:
Is it really that silly. You deny my gift of the Wiccan bible to your rooms and I bet you I will have a line of lawyers waiting in line to sue them. Especially a government facility.

Am just sayn.
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No, son......it would just sit there. I would not go through the expense of a lawyer for such nonsense.
 
maquiscat said:
If you can find a Wiccan Bible, I'll be highly impressed since such a creature doesn't exist, anymore than an Islamic Bible exists. For that matter I'd be impressed if you could find a mass produced Book of Shadows. A real one, not a notebook dressed up for making your own or the "how to" book that uses the name as a title.



Maybe you ought to rethink that statement. Either it is too all inclusive or you are making an assumption that you are not putting out. Are you saying that a person who is working for the government, military or otherwise, should not even be provided a bible from the church that they attend? Are you insinuating that a government working shouldn't even be associated with a religion maybe?



That is an assumption that cannot be currently proven as no other organization provides a holy texts book to hotels.
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You are correct. The Gideons started the tradition of donating the bibles somewhere in the neighborhood of 1898. No other organization has followed suit.
 
TheDemSocialist said:
I think I made it pretty clear. A government shouldn't be involved in no way with a certain religion, period.
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You have no coherent understanding of the First Amendment whatsoever. It does not ban government from being involved in religion. It merely prevents the government from declaring an official state religion and making us a clerical state.
 
KevinKohler said:
He gives a **** either way? They can put dictionaries in all quarters, too. Doesn't mean anyone is obligated to read the ****.
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Very true. It wouldn't matter to me if a bible was placed right on the bed of any hotel room I stayed in. I would simply put it in the desk drawer and leave it there.
 
Manc Skipper said:
The government shouldn't be facilitating proselytising by any religion. You want to read a bible, bring one with you, or go to the Library's religion section.
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You have the same ignorance of the US constitution as demsocialist does.
 
RogueWarrior said:
Personally hoping that the Saudis donate 300 million Korans to all the US hotels rooms currently receiving free donated bibles, and watch the FAUX News **** storm. It would be most amusing to watch the SCOTUS force any hotel chain with US rooms to accept all privately donated religious texts including scientology, jw'ism and mormonism. Every room would need an 8ft bookcase.

I also wonder about all the people in this thread who have no problem with these books in the Navy Lodges and their feelings about privately donated 10 Commandments monuments on courthouse lawns. We already know what SCOTUS thinks of them.

These bibles, or any other religious texts, are an equivalent to the monuments. It does not matter that they are donated.
Why stop at bibles and Lodges? Why not hand out privately donated crucifixes in basic? You don't have to wear them! Even if 80% of your buddies in the outfit do chose to.

from Gideons.ca

The Gideons were donating to public schools but that was shot down by SCOTUS.

This is proselytizing pure and simple. And the government is complicit by allowing them in every room of the Lodges. Maybe there should a 'reading room' where all religious texts and anti-religious texts are located, so interested parties could find what they need. We all know that will never fly because this is not about freedom of religion, it is about freedom to proselytize. Proselytize the religion of the majority.

The very reason for the existence of the 1st is to prevent proselytizing to, or worse forcible conversion of, the minorities to the majority religion.
There are plenty of brutal historical examples which lead to the creation of the 1st so we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.
Click to expand...

You are making up your own definition of the first amendment to the US constitution. I do pity you.
 
ObamacareFail said:
However I am entitled to patronize whichever hotel chain I please based on what I want.
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No one has said any different. In this case, you may not even be able to patronize this particular lodging option to begin with unless you have a military affiliation of some kind.
 
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion

It is not the gubmints purview to establish what is or is not religious material.
 
RogueWarrior said:
The very reason for the existence of the 1st is to prevent proselytizing to, or worse forcible conversion of, the minorities to the majority religion.
There are plenty of brutal historical examples which lead to the creation of the 1st so we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.
Click to expand...

First step a bible in a hotel room next step TEH CRUSAAAAADES!!!
 
maquiscat said:
You're off the point here. It's been noted by both sides that the private hotels can accept or reject any religious material they want for their rooms. We're discussing specifically government run facilities, using the Navy Lodge as a primary example.



Do you have a link to where a privately donated one was declared unconstitional? The only ones I was aware of were local city and county purchased ones, or ones ordered by the local level but then the seller never bother to charge them
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Van Orden v. Perry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In 1961, a privately donated monument was ruled unconstitutional.
 
RogueWarrior said:
Personally hoping that the Saudis donate 300 million Korans to all the US hotels rooms currently receiving free donated bibles, and watch the FAUX News **** storm. It would be most amusing to watch the SCOTUS force any hotel chain with US rooms to accept all privately donated religious texts including scientology, jw'ism and mormonism. Every room would need an 8ft bookcase.

I also wonder about all the people in this thread who have no problem with these books in the Navy Lodges and their feelings about privately donated 10 Commandments monuments on courthouse lawns. We already know what SCOTUS thinks of them.

These bibles, or any other religious texts, are an equivalent to the monuments. It does not matter that they are donated.
Why stop at bibles and Lodges? Why not hand out privately donated crucifixes in basic? You don't have to wear them! Even if 80% of your buddies in the outfit do chose to.

from Gideons.ca

The Gideons were donating to public schools but that was shot down by SCOTUS.

This is proselytizing pure and simple. And the government is complicit by allowing them in every room of the Lodges. Maybe there should a 'reading room' where all religious texts and anti-religious texts are located, so interested parties could find what they need. We all know that will never fly because this is not about freedom of religion, it is about freedom to proselytize. Proselytize the religion of the majority.

The very reason for the existence of the 1st is to prevent proselytizing to, or worse forcible conversion of, the minorities to the majority religion.
There are plenty of brutal historical examples which lead to the creation of the 1st so we don't repeat the mistakes of the past.
Click to expand...
Actually the purpose of the 1st is in part to prevent laws from being made that favor one religion over another.


Nowhere does it mention a restriction on proselytizing.
 
Goshin said:
Why would a private charitable society dedicated to providing Bibles and tracts free to the public put Bibles in Navy lodgings?


Why indeed.... quite the mystery isn't it? :lamo
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I dunno... church... state... something sounds familiar here.
 
How about no bibles, no koran, no book of mormon, etc in anything that is taxpayer funded?

It isn't hard to do.
 
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