Navy reverses Bible ban

Kobie said:

Again, I didn't say it was.

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I know. Nor did I accuse you. I was just using your post to make the point mostly to affirm those who see the situation as it is and to rebut those who want to make it into some kind of unconstitutional promotion of religion.

Kobie said:

I should start a petition to have a copy of Dianetics put in every Navy lodge room, just to be an asshole.

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You wouldn't have to be start a petition; just fork out the cash to have the material printed and donate them to the military.

AlbqOwl said:

No it doesn't appear to be endorsing religion. All it appears to be is the tradition of the Gideons placing Bibles in hotel rooms for the use of anybody who might wish to use one. If anything it appears to be the Navy quite correctly adhering to the Constitutional mandate that the government will not interfere in any way with the free exercise of religion.

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It is permitting one religion to do so, but not the thousands of others. Thus favoring the one, giving it a privileged status within the secular activity of national defense. removing Christian priviledge is not attacking it or religion.

apdst said:

In this particular case, those people who disagree would be very wrong.

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No they aren't. This has come up in other instances similar to this one. Perception does matter. In general, it isn't going to likely be legally challenged unless you do find that the Navy Lodge refused to put other religious documents of some kind in their rooms as well, but it could happen. Right or wrong, I can see a group challenge this by simply seeing if they could get a highly controversial "religious" document put into Navy Lodge rooms or not.

AlbqOwl said:

The government is not providing the books. It is not prohibiting the Gideons from doing so at the request of those who would like to have access to the Bibles or just because they like seeing them in the rooms.

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The government is providing the books, it is just that the government got them for free. If those individuals going to the Navy Lodge want a Bible, they can bring their own. If they don't have one, they are free to request one from the Gideons. But they do not have a right to have a Bible in their rooms, even if the Gideons gave some to the Navy Lodges to put in the rooms. They could simply explain to the Gideons why they can't do this.

Manc Skipper said:

It is permitting one religion to do so, but not the thousands of others. Thus favoring the one, giving it a privileged status within the secular activity of national defense. removing Christian priviledge is not attacking it or religion.

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So show me another religion who wants to do that and was denied. Then we can have a reasoned discussion about it.

roguenuke said:

The government is providing the books, it is just that the government got them for free. If those individuals going to the Navy Lodge want a Bible, they can bring their own. If they don't have one, they are free to request one from the Gideons. But they do not have a right to have a Bible in their rooms, even if the Gideons gave some to the Navy Lodges to put in the rooms. They could simply explain to the Gideons why they can't do this.

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The Navy however does have a right to say yes to the Gideons because they are NOT promoting any religion by allowing people the comfort or pleasure of having access to those bibles. And in my opinion it is only the most bigoted, prejudiced, and mean spirited people who would deny them that.

AlbqOwl said:

The Navy however does have a right to say yes to the Gideons because they are NOT promoting any religion by allowing people the comfort or pleasure of having access to those bibles. And in my opinion it is only the most bigoted, prejudiced, and mean spirited people who would deny them that.

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Not necessarily. The Navy is a part of the government and they cannot be seen to favor or promote any individual religion. By providing only Bibles in those rooms, and most likely not even having literature available for other religions, that can easily be seen from a reasonable person standpoint to be promoting a religion.

You do not have a right to have a Bible or any other religious texts provided in your hotel room just because it "comforts" or "pleases" you, even if someone else is willing to put it there.

roguenuke said:

Not necessarily. The Navy is a part of the government and they cannot be seen to favor or promote any individual religion. By providing only Bibles in those rooms, and most likely not even having literature available for other religions, that can easily be seen from a reasonable person standpoint to be promoting a religion.

You do not have a right to have a Bible or any other religious texts provided in your hotel room just because it "comforts" or "pleases" you, even if someone else is willing to put it there.

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I wonder how many different ways we can say that the Navy is not providing the Bibles in the room and is not favoring or promoting any religion by allowing the Gideons to do so before it will be understood?

AlbqOwl said:

I wonder how many different ways we can say that the Navy is not providing the Bibles in the room and is not favoring or promoting any religion by allowing the Gideons to do so before it will be understood?

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I would assume that if some organization of Muslims wanted to provide copies of the Koran for each room, it would be allowed....

AlbqOwl said:

So show me another religion who wants to do that and was denied. Then we can have a reasoned discussion about it.

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The Royal Navy has accommodated a Satanist among its ranks. That is a side issue. The question is not refusal of an inappropriate act to some, it is permitting it to anyone. All or nothing. Offer access to all, or no-one.

The Mark said:

I would assume that if some organization of Muslims wanted to provide copies of the Koran for each room, it would be allowed....

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Yes. I would assume the same thing, but since no orthodox Muslim would want an infidel handling their holy book, that's not likely to happen. Most mosques don't even want a copy available in the local public library. But again, the fact that the Gideons are the ONLY religious organization doing this as a private ministry is not a disqualification for them being allowed to do it.

The Bible itself is a historical document containing history, ancient law, poetry, wisdom sayings, allegory, metaphor, prophecy, symbolism, and bits and pieces of ancient explanations spanning thousands of years of JudeoChristian influence with some pagan references. By itself there is nothing about it that could be definitively seen as promotion of any particular religion or religious group, but it is the best selling book in the world and is evident on all the world's continents. And it is a source of comfort and assurance for billions. Again only the most religion-hating and mean spirited people could possibly have any objection to its presence in a hotel room.

Manc Skipper said:

The Royal Navy has accommodated a Satanist among its ranks. That is a side issue. The question is not refusal of an inappropriate act to some, it is permitting it to anyone. All or nothing. Offer access to all, or no-one.

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Again who have they denied access? So far as I know the Gideons are the only group with this ministry. If you know of another who has been refused access to place another holy book, speak up. Or the issue is moot.

AlbqOwl said:

I wonder how many different ways we can say that the Navy is not providing the Bibles in the room and is not favoring or promoting any religion by allowing the Gideons to do so before it will be understood?

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The Navy is providing them, even if they are not the ones paying for them. They are still in Navy rooms. And by having them in those rooms, that can be seen as promoting religion, specifically Christianity. There is no getting around that no matter how much you wish to deny it. Is it a big deal to me or most people? No. But I do recognize the legitimate issue here and it is more likely that if this were actually challenged, that the Bibles would most likely have to be removed from the rooms, possibly put in a general area with other religious documents/texts or available upon request, but likely not left in the rooms on purpose by Navy Lodge staff. The Gideons could not get in the rooms on their own.

AlbqOwl said:

Again who have they denied access? So far as I know the Gideons are the only group with this ministry. If you know of another who has been refused access to place another holy book, speak up. Or the issue is moot.

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We don't actually know now do we? How do we know others haven't requested something be put into the rooms in Navy Lodges and they were ignored?

AlbqOwl said:

Again who have they denied access? So far as I know the Gideons are the only group with this ministry. If you know of another who has been refused access to place another holy book, speak up. Or the issue is moot.

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They don't have to deny access to others for it to be wrong. They have given access to one, to the detriment of others.

No surprise at the misleading title of the piece. Starnes has made a career of lying and stirring up the delicate emotions of southern Christians .

roguenuke said:

The Navy is providing them, even if they are not the ones paying for them. They are still in Navy rooms. And by having them in those rooms, that can be seen as promoting religion, specifically Christianity. There is no getting around that no matter how much you wish to deny it. Is it a big deal to me or most people? No. But I do recognize the legitimate issue here and it is more likely that if this were actually challenged, that the Bibles would most likely have to be removed from the rooms, possibly put in a general area with other religious documents/texts or available upon request, but likely not left in the rooms on purpose by Navy Lodge staff. The Gideons could not get in the rooms on their own.

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Okay. If I accept a Christmas or birthday present I provided it. It was my doing and not the person who bought, wrapped, and presented the gift. Gotcha. Geez, do you really believe that? Do you honestly think having the hotel or lodge inform guests that a Bible is available if they want one is not promotion of religion while placing a Gideon Bible in a drawer is?

roguenuke said:

We don't actually know now do we? How do we know others haven't requested something be put into the rooms in Navy Lodges and they were ignored?

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Well since it seems so important to some of you, why don't you research that and get back to us.

Manc Skipper said:

They don't have to deny access to others for it to be wrong. They have given access to one, to the detriment of others.

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Okay what is the detriment? Please spell out how what the Gideons are allowed to do is harming anybody when anybody else who chose to do so could do the same thing?

I like how it only took four posts to show how there was never any such ban on bibles. It is still inappropriate for the navy to be making any moves to endorse a religious perspective, even one so small as this.

AlbqOwl said:

Okay what is the detriment? Please spell out how what the Gideons are allowed to do is harming anybody when anybody else who chose to do so could do the same thing?

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The Gideons are permitted to leave their tree-murdering propaganda in an act of breathtaking patronising condescension. They presume that their message is needed if not wanted, where it is not. In this case, their activity is by default endorsed by the government.
If people have need of such a pubilcation they can bring it with them.

Manc Skipper said:

The Gideons are permitted to leave their tree-murdering propaganda in an act of breathtaking patronising condescension. They presume that their message is needed if not wanted, where it is not. In this case, their activity is by default endorsed by the government.
If people have need of such a pubilcation they can bring it with them.

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In other words you can't come up with a single way that anybody is being coerced, harmed, or suffers detrimentally about anything. Do have a nice day.

Capster78 said:

Why stop at the Koran and the Bible.. Hell.. place the Analects of Confucius, Ginza Rba, Holy Books of Thelema, Tipitaka, Dhammapada, Akilattirattu Ammanai, Arul Nool, Zend-Avesta, Hebrew Bible, Talmud, Gospel of Thomas, Guru Granth Sahib, Homeric Hymns, Theogony, Golden Verses of Pythagoras, Orphic Poems, Holy Piby, Kebra Negast, Royal Parchment Scroll of Black Supremacy, Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, The Barton Cylinder.....

I could go on and on......

Then perhaps we can bankrupt our military by providing 2,000 holy books into every service members room..... Or... Just maybe, we can be sensible and let service men and women purchase and practice religion on their own.

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Since the Navy does not pay for these bibles nor does any other government agency your statement has failed.

Capster78 said:

The big deal is the separation of church and state. The government can't be seen as a device to push a particular religion.

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If the government were to refuse to allow any other religious group to place holy books in the rooms, then the argument could be made for them pushing a particular religion. But no other group is doing what the Giddions are doing. Therefore there is no conflict nor a pushing of a single religion.

roguenuke said:

The basic design of currency would still need to be changed. That costs money to do. It has not been worth that money, particularly since it has already been ruled to have very little significant relation to a particular religion, and much more historical value.

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This is an invalid argument. Since we've already spent money several times to change the design of the currency, both coin and paper, there is no reason that the phrase "In God We Trust" could not have been removed during such a change. I am not arguing that it should be removed, just that the expense argument was rendered invalid by the currency actually being changed.

roguenuke said:

We don't actually know now do we? How do we know others haven't requested something be put into the rooms in Navy Lodges and they were ignored?

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I'm pretty sure that would set off a lawsuit, particularly in this day and age.

Kobie said:

I should start a petition to have a copy of Dianetics put in every Navy lodge room, just to be an asshole.

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Who are you going to get to donate all those copies of Dianetics in the same manner that the Giddions donate their bibles? Or are you petitioning the Scientologists to copy the Giddions in practice?

AlbqOwl said:

The Navy however does have a right to say yes to the Gideons because they are NOT promoting any religion by allowing people the comfort or pleasure of having access to those bibles. And in my opinion it is only the most bigoted, prejudiced, and mean spirited people who would deny them that.

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Bad argument. Regardless of whether or not the bibles are in the room, people have access to a bible.

Manc Skipper said:

It is permitting one religion to do so, but not the thousands of others. Thus favoring the one, giving it a privileged status within the secular activity of national defense. removing Christian priviledge is not attacking it or religion.

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You haven't been reading. It's not a matter of the other religions not being permitted to do so. The other religions and even the other denominations simply haven't done so. Can you show where another religion or denomination has been denied permission to place their religious books in a similar manner to how the Giddions do it?

Manc Skipper said:

The Royal Navy has accommodated a Satanist among its ranks. That is a side issue. The question is not refusal of an inappropriate act to some, it is permitting it to anyone. All or nothing. Offer access to all, or no-one.

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Access is there. The other religions have not taken advantage of it.

Manc Skipper said:

They don't have to deny access to others for it to be wrong. They have given access to one, to the detriment of others.

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Having access does not require one to use it. Unless you can show otherwise then all have been given access, but only one actually used it.

Manc Skipper said:

The Gideons are permitted to leave their tree-murdering propaganda in an act of breathtaking patronising condescension. They presume that their message is needed if not wanted, where it is not. In this case, their activity is by default endorsed by the government.
If people have need of such a pubilcation they can bring it with them.

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For your statement to be true you need to show where others have been denied the same access. Not using access to something is not that same as being denied access.

maquiscat said:

Who are you going to get to donate all those copies of Dianetics in the same manner that the Giddions donate their bibles? Or are you petitioning the Scientologists to copy the Giddions in practice?

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Psst ... it was a joke