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Navy reverses Bible ban

maquiscat said:
Now as to the thread in general, yes if the Giddeons are donating the bibles then I see no issue with them being placed in the lodge rooms. However, should other similar texts (Koran, Torah, etc) also be donated in a similar manner and are not placed within the rooms then we have an issue.
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Well, that does bring up a good point. The military couldn't say no to other religious books if they allow the bible. Then if they allows religious books do they also allow religious pictures to be in the room?
The Gideons bible to me is so commonplace in hotel rooms that I never give it much thought. It is even mentioned in the Beatles song Rocky Raccoon. But I think you have to be careful when you open the door a little as there is always a tendency to push that door even wider and you may regret it. It is like a congress bill that may appear good but all these others things get snuck in with it.

I think if a group donated condoms to each hotel room they would do more good , but that is just me.
 
Navy Pride said:
I have stayed at a Navy Lodge several times with my family and bibles were always in the rooms.:confused:
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So? It shouldn't matter if they are or are not there. As with any religion or really anything that you wish to read, you should bring your own. Just because people are used to something doesn't mean they have a right to it.
 
NIMBY said:
Maybe just set up a rack with religious material for all those wishing material other than Bibles.
Though I can see the day when there is a religious "portfolio" as we see in motels for restaurants and such.

Since I was fortunate enough to see my Dad get full Military rites, I suppose I'm not as objective .
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Why not a rack for all including Bibles?
 
Deuce said:
I was wondering why the Navy would have banned bibles.


Turns out they didn't. "Ban" is not what happened here. The Navy merely stopped placing bibles in their lodgings.

Why did that become a thing, anyway? Why does every hotel in America have a bible in the drawer?
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WHAT??? Dang, now I have to stop my happy dance.
 
AlbqOwl said:
But the government is not endorsing a particular religion. The government is not providing the Bibles. It is simply allowing the Gideons to do a kindness to those who use the Lodge rooms. Unless it would deny any others the ability to place their holy book in the rooms--and no other group has any inclination to do so--it is unreasonable to think the government is endorsing anything. The Bibles are not an establishment of religion, they pose no problem to natural security nor harm anybody, and to deny them a corner in a drawer, space needed by nobody, would be unnecessarily cruel and inhumane to people who draw on their faith to get them through whatever they have to face. And to deny them because somebody might be hateful enough or mean spirited enough to deny somebody that because they would erroneously say it established religion would just be plain dumb.
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It doesn't matter if the government is providing them or not, the government still appears to be endorsing that religion, whether intentionally or not. When it comes to the military especially, appearance does matter.
 
apdst said:
Because the Giddeons donate those Bibles.
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Somebody needs to start a Gideon version of the FSM, they can put a cup of instant ramen in every hotel room and every Navy bed. :2razz:
 
1750Texan said:
If the Bible meant so much to travelers, why wouldn't they take it with them.
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Um....they would and many still do. The Giddions will supply a few cases of these bibles and then if a guest takes the one from their room the hotel/motel replaces it when they do the room clean up. It is the hope of the Giddions that a guest will take their bible with them.
 
maquiscat said:
Um....they would and many still do. The Giddions will supply a few cases of these bibles and then if a guest takes the one from their room the hotel/motel replaces it when they do the room clean up. It is the hope of the Giddions that a guest will take their bible with them.
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Gotta help with good Rocky's revival.;)
 
roguenuke said:
It doesn't matter if the government is providing them or not, the government still appears to be endorsing that religion, whether intentionally or not. When it comes to the military especially, appearance does matter.
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And the Supreme Court both acknowledges that point, and also permits the words "In God we trust" to be retained on currency and the words "under God" to retained in the Pledge of Allegiance (among other things).

In short, the cut off date set by SCOTUS for when religous references are considered historical / cultural and can thus be retained is the 1950s (they have never set an exact date). My bet is that the Gideons have been placing those Bibles in Navy Lodges since before the 1950s.

As such, the historical practice should be allowed to continue. Yes, some atheists are going to get very butt hurt about it (I think the Navy's service wide Bible yank was fueled by what- two complainers?), but those types probably cry every time they use currency (In God we trust) or fly into Sacramento California, or are stationed in Corpus Christi, Texas.

At the end of the day though, too bad for the complainers. I dont know how else to say it- America still is majority Christian and some aspects of that are going to permeate in minor ways into the public sphere. That does not mean that the Navy needs to allow Christian or Muslim groups to construct chapels at Navy loges (not a historical practice).
 
Kobie said:
So why can't they buy their own bibles?
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I'm sure they can. The Gideons, however, provide them free under various circumstances, and there's no real reason to bar them from doing so. It's not like anyone is forced to take one or read one.



If there was such a thing as the Tom Clancy Society, dedicated to putting free Tom Clancy novels in military lodgings so they'd have something interesting to read, I doubt you'd have any major objections... or if it were philosophy texts, or adult education books, etc.


Odd that only the Bible seems to stir such controversy.
 
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apdst said:
I would support it 100%
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Why stop at the Koran and the Bible.. Hell.. place the Analects of Confucius, Ginza Rba, Holy Books of Thelema, Tipitaka, Dhammapada, Akilattirattu Ammanai, Arul Nool, Zend-Avesta, Hebrew Bible, Talmud, Gospel of Thomas, Guru Granth Sahib, Homeric Hymns, Theogony, Golden Verses of Pythagoras, Orphic Poems, Holy Piby, Kebra Negast, Royal Parchment Scroll of Black Supremacy, Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, The Barton Cylinder.....

I could go on and on......

Then perhaps we can bankrupt our military by providing 2,000 holy books into every service members room..... Or... Just maybe, we can be sensible and let service men and women purchase and practice religion on their own.
 
Goshin said:
I'm sure they can. The Gideons, however, provide them free under various circumstances, and there's no real reason to bar them from doing so. It's not like anyone is forced to take one or read one.



If there was such a thing as the Tom Clancy Society, dedicated to putting free Tom Clancy novels in military lodgings so they'd have something interesting to read, I doubt you'd have any major objections... or if it were philosophy texts, or adult education books, etc.


Odd that only the Bible seems to stir such controversy.
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Then it would be ok for the Navy to solicit that any organization can leave their material in the rooms? careful before you answer...
 
Deuce said:
Why did that become a thing, anyway? Why does every hotel in America have a bible in the drawer?
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To provide people with high quality paper to roll joints with when they run out of zig zags.
 
Capster78 said:
I could go on and on......

Then perhaps we can bankrupt our military by providing 2,000 holy books into every service members room..... Or... Just maybe, we can be sensible and let service men and women purchase and practice religion on their own.
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Or maybe, just maybe we can apply a very simple Supreme Court principal:

If the practice with religous references is historical (usually before the 1950s), it is allowed to continue. So, "In god we trust" has remained on currency, "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, and Corpus Christi Naval Airstation is well... Corpus Christi Naval Air Station.

My guess is that the practice of Gideons Bibles in Navy Lodges pre dates the 1950s.... . Ergo, it should stay.
 
Cryptic said:
Or maybe, just maybe we can apply a very simple Supreme Court principal:

If the practice with religous references is historical (usually before the 1950s), it is allowed to continue. So, "In god we trust" has remained on currency, "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, and Corpus Christi Naval Airstation is well... Corpus Christi Naval Air Station.

My guess is that the practice of Gideons Bibles in Navy Lodges pre dates the 1950s.... . Ergo, it should stay.
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The painting of scantily clad women on the side of USAF bombers is also historical, but I don't see anyone seriously lobbying to bring that back..... We really need to stop giving religion a pass on things we don't give to other things. Its nonsensical...
 
1750Texan said:
Then it would be ok for the Navy to solicit that any organization can leave their material in the rooms? careful before you answer...
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Not ISIS or NAMBLA, no.... but you can hardly compare the Gideon Bible and Tract Society to them.


Dude it's a fricken Bible.... it isn't going to bite you. :roll:
 
Cryptic said:
Or maybe, just maybe we can apply a very simple Supreme Court principal:

If the practice with religous references is historical (usually before the 1950s), it is allowed to continue. So, "In god we trust" has remained on currency, "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance, and Corpus Christi Naval Airstation is well... Corpus Christi Naval Air Station.

My guess is that the practice of Gideons Bibles in Navy Lodges pre dates the 1950s.... . Ergo, it should stay.
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In any event... that ruling was on currency and on historical documents... not on religious text placed in the rooms of servicemen/women
 
Capster78 said:
In any event... that ruling was on currency and on historical documents... not on religious text placed in the rooms of servicemen/women
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You are missing the core concept: The practice of placing a religous based motto on currency was found to be historical and thus, permissible. Likewise, the practice of allowing Gideons to place bibles in Navy lodges is, in all probability historical (practice been in place since prior to the 1950s)
 
Goshin said:
I'm sure they can. The Gideons, however, provide them free under various circumstances, and there's no real reason to bar them from doing so. It's not like anyone is forced to take one or read one.



If there was such a thing as the Tom Clancy Society, dedicated to putting free Tom Clancy novels in military lodgings so they'd have something interesting to read, I doubt you'd have any major objections... or if it were philosophy texts, or adult education books, etc.


Odd that only the Bible seems to stir such controversy.
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Are you telling me you honestly believe putting Korans in military lodgings would not stir a controversy?
 
Cryptic said:
You are missing the core concept: The practice of placing a religous based motto on currency was found to be historical and thus, permissible. Likewise, the practice of allowing Gideons to place bibles in Navy lodges is, in all probability historical (practice been in place since prior to the 1950s)
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Since when is "people have done this before" a justification for doing it?
 
Deuce said:
Are you telling me you honestly believe putting Korans in military lodgings would not stir a controversy?
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Granted. Personally, I have no issue with it.... nobody has to read the thing.
 
apdst said:
Why do you have a problem with a private orginization donating Bibles to the troops?
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I don't. My question was more geared toward the idea that such things should be provided (and others not) simply because the military is predominantly Christian. Goshin later clarified his statement.
 
Deuce said:
Since when is "people have done this before" a justification for doing it?
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Since both the U.S. Supreme Court and numerous appellate courts have made numerous rulings in this area.

Those rulings clearly state that "People have done this before" can be a justification for doing something- retaining religous mottos on coins, wordings in the Pledge, place names, and crosses on public land.

As with the coins, the Pledge, place names, crosses on public land, the common test for bibles in navy hotel rooms should be:
A- have People have done that before? and
B- is it historical (practice initiated before 1950?

If the answers to both "A" and "B" are "Yes", then the practice is allowed to continue. Its not a revolutionary concept and does a very good job of balancing the interests of both parties.
 
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