Page 9 of 28 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 273

Thread: Navy reverses Bible ban

  1. #81
    Professor
    Capster78's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Florida
    Last Seen
    08-24-15 @ 02:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    2,253

    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The government doesn't provide Bibles to the troops. Since a private orginization donates the Bibles what's the big deal?
    The big deal is the separation of church and state. The government can't be seen as a device to push a particular religion.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  2. #82
    Professor
    Capster78's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Florida
    Last Seen
    08-24-15 @ 02:35 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Centrist
    Posts
    2,253

    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Sigh, the ease of removing something played no part in the Supreme Court decisions. Rather, they reached a very elegent compromise for both sides:
    - If the religous references were before the 1950s, they stay as historical cultural statements
    -If not, they go

    Do you really think that removinvg the motto "In God We Trust" from nearly all U.S. currency in circualtion would be that hard? Heck, just simply stop minting or printing currency wth the motto. Both bills and coins have life spans. Also, and what about the crosses on public lands- would it be too hard to remove them as well?

    So far, the compromise has worked very well: Recent ten commandment monuments have been removed, while crosses erected in the 1920s have stayed. Also, the Supreme Court has recentlty ruled that historical religous references can be even be kept in public schoools- but that they needed to be very historical. A buildling built in the 1960s was not historical enough
    The ruling is stupid. I really don't see a cross from 1930 and a cross from 2010 to be any different. It is an attempt at the religious zelots in this country to hold on to anything they can use to push their ideas on the rest of us.
    - There was never a good war, or a bad peace.
    - Idealistically, everything should work as you planed it to. Realistically, it depends on how idealistic you are as to the measure of success.
    - Better to be a pessimist before, and an optimist afterwords.

  3. #83
    The Dude
    Kobie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Western NY
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:50 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    42,919

    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    The government doesn't provide Bibles to the troops. Since a private orginization donates the Bibles what's the big deal?
    I never said it was a big deal.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

  4. #84
    Sage
    roguenuke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Last Seen
    Yesterday @ 06:42 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Moderate
    Posts
    29,054

    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    And the Supreme Court both acknowledges that point, and also permits the words "In God we trust" to be retained on currency and the words "under God" to retained in the Pledge of Allegiance (among other things).

    In short, the cut off date set by SCOTUS for when religous references are considered historical / cultural and can thus be retained is the 1950s (they have never set an exact date). My bet is that the Gideons have been placing those Bibles in Navy Lodges since before the 1950s.

    As such, the historical practice should be allowed to continue. Yes, some atheists are going to get very butt hurt about it (I think the Navy's service wide Bible yank was fueled by what- two complainers?), but those types probably cry every time they use currency (In God we trust) or fly into Sacramento California, or are stationed in Corpus Christi, Texas.

    At the end of the day though, too bad for the complainers. I dont know how else to say it- America still is majority Christian and some aspects of that are going to permeate in minor ways into the public sphere. That does not mean that the Navy needs to allow Christian or Muslim groups to construct chapels at Navy loges (not a historical practice).
    Actually, the main reason for keeping the "In God We Trust" on our currency is plainly expense that it would take to remove it. We have too much currency to change out and the expense to do it would be prohibitive for such a little benefit. So it isn't. It has little to nothing to do with when it was placed on there. There is no cost prohibitions to take the bibles from the Lodge rooms and give them to the base library or even putting them on a rack in the lobby or in a room somewhere with other religious texts having them available upon request.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #85
    Sage
    AlbqOwl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    New Mexico
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    17,574
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    If I remember right, and I am not going to look it up before going to bed, so take this for what it is worth, the standard is whether a reasonable person could interpret it as an endorsement of a particular religion. If a reasonable person stays at a navy lodge and finds the bible in their room, would they see it as the navy endorsing Christianity? I would kinda think that is quite possible.

    Note: I am not suggesting the bibles are an endorsement, nor that it really was harmful, nor that it was worth the efforts of those who complained. I actually find it annoying that people target little stuff like this. However, once some one does complain, then you are in a situation where it does have to be taken seriously. I am not going to speculate on the outcome, but pending an actual outcome, it would have been best to keep the bibles out of the rooms.
    Do you think those folks staying at a Holiday Inn who notice the Gideon Bible in the dresser drawer think the Holiday Inn is endorsing religion? Or just doing a nice thing for the guests by allowing the Gideons to put it there? I personally do notice those Bibles when we stay in hotels and motels and it feels wrong if it isn't there though I very rarely ever open one. So why would any reasonable person see a Gideon Bible in a Navy Lodge room see it any differently? And how could any intelligent person see that as an endorsement of religion?
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  6. #86
    The Dude
    Kobie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Location
    Western NY
    Last Seen
    Today @ 11:50 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Liberal
    Posts
    42,919

    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    Do you think those folks staying at a Holiday Inn who notice the Gideon Bible in the dresser drawer think the Holiday Inn is endorsing religion? Or just doing a nice thing for the guests by allowing the Gideons to put it there? I personally do notice those Bibles when we stay in hotels and motels and would feel odd if it wasn't there though I very rarely ever open one. So why would any reasonable person see a Gideon Bible in a Navy Lodge room see it any differently? And how could any intelligent person see that as an endorsement of religion?
    Playing devil's advocate here ...

    Holiday Inn is a private company; the Navy lodge is a government-run entity. Holiday Inn can promote whatever religion it wants. The government, at least according to legal precedent re: the First Amendment, isn't supposed to do that.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

  7. #87
    Guru

    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Last Seen
    12-12-17 @ 11:27 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    3,899

    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Actually, the main reason for keeping the "In God We Trust" on our currency is plainly expense that it would take to remove it. .
    No- Actually, it would involve very little expense to change most, if not nearly all of the currency in circulation: Currency has a life span. simply ptop printing it with the motto. Most, if not nearly all US currency would quickly be motto free.

    As I stated before, cost had no bearing in the Supreme Court decision. Rather, it was an elegent compromise:
    -Has the practice (currency with motto) or cross on public land been in place since before the 1950s?

    -If "no", it goes
    -If "yes", it stays as a historical / cultural relic or practice.

    My bet is that the Gideon bibles in the Nacy Lodges are in the "Yes" category.

  8. #88
    Sage
    AlbqOwl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    New Mexico
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    17,574
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    It doesn't matter if the government is providing them or not, the government still appears to be endorsing that religion, whether intentionally or not. When it comes to the military especially, appearance does matter.
    No it doesn't appear to be endorsing religion. All it appears to be is the tradition of the Gideons placing Bibles in hotel rooms for the use of anybody who might wish to use one. If anything it appears to be the Navy quite correctly adhering to the Constitutional mandate that the government will not interfere in any way with the free exercise of religion.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

  9. #89
    Sage
    apdst's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Bagdad, La.
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:48 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Very Conservative
    Posts
    76,590

    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    I never said it was a big deal.
    Then why are you pissin about it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

  10. #90
    Sage
    AlbqOwl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    New Mexico
    Last Seen
    Today @ 01:08 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Other
    Posts
    17,574
    Blog Entries
    2

    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    Playing devil's advocate here ...

    Holiday Inn is a private company; the Navy lodge is a government-run entity. Holiday Inn can promote whatever religion it wants. The government, at least according to legal precedent re: the First Amendment, isn't supposed to do that.
    The point is neither are promoting religion by allowing the Gideons to provide a courtesy to patrons of overnight lodging. Only those who would deny that simple courtesy because it is seen as related to religion are promoting anything, i.e. denial of people's right to exercise religion as they choose or enjoy a simple courtesy that no doubt provides comfort and is of value to some.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

Page 9 of 28 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •