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Thread: Navy reverses Bible ban

  1. #261
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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    NONE of your tax dollars funded the bibles. They were placed there free by the Gideons.
    So what? They shouldn't be there, nor should any religious material, or any political material. The rooms are taxpayer funded....

    Besides....if you were a GOOD christian, you would already have your own travel bible....LOL
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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by beefheart View Post
    So what? They shouldn't be there, nor should any religious material, or any political material. The rooms are taxpayer funded....

    Besides....if you were a GOOD christian, you would already have your own travel bible....LOL

    Your sig makes it clear why you stand where you stand on this.

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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Goshin View Post
    Your sig makes it clear why you stand where you stand on this.
    Yeah, what of it?

    Your postings and moderation makes it clear where you stand on this.

    Freedom from religion, hard for you guys to accept.
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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Navy Pride View Post
    Chalk up one for the good guys...........God Bless the USA.

    Navy reverses Bible ban | Fox News
    Wow, what liars. Good to see liars being used as evidence for an argument. But the Bibles were never banned. Lying for cheap political points is sick and dishonest.
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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    You cannot show this "1950s" thing you keep attempting to claim. That has absolutely little to do with whether something is acceptable. Pretty sure children were learning about the Bible and Christian beliefs in school long before the 50s and those still went away.

    Frequently Asked Questions - Religion | First Amendment Center

    This is the real test of acceptability:

    Nothing whatsoever to do with length of time it has lasted.
    Yikes, you are right. That is the true litmus test. But, length of time is apparently an important factor in how leniently the litmust test will be interpreted. For example:

    - Mojave Desert cross -SCOTUS rejects challenge to contrived land transfer of one acre to a private group. Notes cross was erected in 1920s
    -William and Mary cross- SCOTUS rejects challege to its presence beside the altar. Notes college was orignially anglican and cross was there in the 1930s
    - Mount Soledad cross- SCOTUS rejects calls to order its immediate removal, notes cross was erected in the 1950s and sends it back to lower court
    -Ten Commandments at Texas State house: SCOTUS allows commandements to stay, majority opinion writer notes that monument was installed in 1961. Also notes that about 120 other similar monuments from the 1950s exist.
    -Mount Helix cross- Challenges to contrived land transfer of area immediately below cross do not appear to be going anywhere

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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    Yikes, you are right. That is the true litmus test. But, length of time is apparently an important factor in how leniently the litmust test will be interpreted. For example:

    - Mojave Desert cross -SCOTUS rejects challenge to contrived land transfer of one acre to a private group. Notes cross was erected in 1920s
    -William and Mary cross- SCOTUS rejects challege to its presence beside the altar. Notes college was orignially anglican and cross was there in the 1930s
    - Mount Soledad cross- SCOTUS rejects calls to order its immediate removal, notes cross was erected in the 1950s and sends it back to lower court
    -Ten Commandments at Texas State house: SCOTUS allows commandements to stay, majority opinion writer notes that monument was installed in 1961. Also notes that about 120 other similar monuments from the 1950s exist.
    -Mount Helix cross- Challenges to contrived land transfer of area immediately below cross do not appear to be going anywhere
    All of those time/year notes tend to be more like asides as extra to the real reasoning behind why those particular things could be seen as something other than religious. Those are also monuments, all of them. They are not the Bible/Bibles being in a government run facility as in this case, without even any other religious texts available, no matter who actually provided those Bibles to the guests. The government is still being viewed by at least some guests as providing the Bibles, and therefore supporting or encouraging a particular religious belief.
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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    All of those time/year notes tend to be more like asides as extra to the real reasoning behind why those particular things could be seen as something other than religious.
    I dont think so at all- espescially the large crosses thinly dual purposed as "war memorials"- though they do not list any war on them. Also, the Mount Helix cross, the beneficiary of a contrived land transfer, is a "family memorial" (not even a war memorial). It would also be a large stretch to say that the Williams and Mary altar cross serves a secular purpose.

    Rather, the Court seems to be saying:
    A. The US is a secular nation with seperation of church and state and
    B. SCOTUS is not going to be a tool of butt hurt atheists who want to remove any and all cultural vestiges- and the things we are discussing really are vestiges, of Judeao Christianity from the State realm.

    Thus.... the leniency of interpretation given to historical (pre 1950s) monuments and practices. If SCOTUS was willing to be used as a tool for this goal, then the California crosses and the 120 other monuments and the currency motto would no longer be there.
    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Those are also monuments, all of them. They are not the Bible/Bibles being in a government run facility as in this case, without even any other religious texts available, no matter who actually provided those Bibles to the guests. The government is still being viewed by at least some guests as providing the Bibles, and therefore supporting or encouraging a particular religious belief.
    The motto on the currency which can easily be said to promote theism is not a monument, was initiated in the 1950s (historical) and also seems to have been given the benefit of a lenient interpretation of the litmus test.

    My guess is that this practice is also historical (pre 1950s), and if challenged, is also going to be given a lenient interpretation of the litmus test. Fundamentally, the bibles are going to stay in the rooms, though an administrative decisison by the military may well allow other donated religous materials to be kept at the desk.
    Last edited by Cryptic; 08-21-14 at 04:07 PM.

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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    I dont think so at all- espescially the large crosses thinly dual purposed as "war memorials"- though they do not list any war on them. Also, the Mount Helix cross, the beneficiary of a contrived land transfer, is a "family memorial" (not even a war memorial). It would also be a large stretch to say that the Williams and Mary altar cross serves a secular purpose.

    Rather, the Court seems to be saying:
    A. The US is a secular nation with seperation of church and state and
    B. SCOTUS is not going to be a tool of butt hurt atheists who want to remove any and all cultural vestiges- and the things we are discussing really are vestiges, of Judeao Christianity from the State realm.

    Thus.... the leniency of interpretation given to historical (pre 1950s) monuments and practices. If SCOTUS was willing to be used as a tool for this goal, then the California crosses and the 120 other monuments and the currency motto would no longer be there.

    The motto on the currency which can easily be said to promote theism is not a monument, was initiated in the 1950s (historical) and also seems to have been given the benefit of a lenient interpretation of the litmus test.

    My guess is that this practice is also historical (pre 1950s), and if challenged, is also going to be given a lenient interpretation of the litmus test. Fundamentally, the bibles are going to stay in the rooms, though an administrative decisison by the military may well allow other donated religous materials to be kept at the desk.
    Again, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the time something has been around. Prayers were allowed in school, as was reading from the Bible. Now they aren't.

    If they don't allow other religious materials or really any unoffensive books/literature in their rooms while still having the Bibles, they will face and lose a lawsuit. If challenged legally though, they don't really stand much of a chance. All the challengers would have to do is request to get something else placed in the rooms. If it is turned down, they win. If it is allowed, I'm willing to bet someone will push it til they have no choice but to simply remove all the literature from the rooms and place it somewhere else, either available upon request, a library or the lobby, or simply give it to the base book lounge or library.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Again, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the time something has been around. Prayers were allowed in school, as was reading from the Bible. Now they aren't.
    Wrong- age matters.

    When SCOTUS has let displays remain (William and Mary Cross, TX Ten commandments and similar ones), or has let contrived land transfers stand (California crosses), the Court has noted how long the display has been there. In short, the more historical the display, the more lenient the litmus test is applied.

    Public high schools and elementary schools are different. Schools, the words of one justice, must be kept espescially seperate from religion. To my knowledge, the only historical displays ordered removed have been in schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    All the challengers would have to do is request to get something else placed in the rooms. If it is turned down, they win. If it is allowed, I'm willing to bet someone will push it til they have no choice but to simply remove all the literature from the rooms and place it somewhere else, either available upon request, a library or the lobby, or simply give it to the base book lounge or library.

    I doubt it will even go that far. Rather, the Courts are simply going to shut the butthurt atheist argument down by considering the practice to be historicaland then givie a lenient interpretation of the litmus test. The Courts do not like being used as a tool of the butthurt to pursue increasingly petty aspects of their social agenda.

    As a side note, the Courts have also rejected claims by butt hurt Christians:

    - California teacher documents that biased principal did not subject non christian displays in free speech areas to the same level of scrutiny as his Christian display.
    - Appellate Court: Yawn, was your Christian display allowed as a concept? A- yes. Good, then we are not going into petty details, even if you appear to be right about a bias by the principal.

    Basically, Courts like real meaty issues not:
    - Stop everything a biased principal, closely scrutinzed my Christian display, and ordered "just because" modifications.
    - Stop everything, there is a cross in the middle of National Park that is now technically on private land via a contrived transfer of one acre. SCOTUS Do you mean the 1920s cross? Get a life... .
    Last edited by Cryptic; 08-21-14 at 06:48 PM.

  10. #270
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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Again, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the time something has been around. Prayers were allowed in school, as was reading from the Bible. Now they aren't.
    Those are active items that were forced upon all with no consideration as to their religion. This does not compare to passive items that you are not forced to attend to or engage with in any meaningful way.

    If they don't allow other religious materials or really any unoffensive books/literature in their rooms while still having the Bibles, they will face and lose a lawsuit.
    But until they have someone try, then we will never really know if other religious materials are not allowed.


    If challenged legally though, they don't really stand much of a chance. All the challengers would have to do is request to get something else placed in the rooms. If it is turned down, they win. If it is allowed, I'm willing to bet someone will push it til they have no choice but to simply remove all the literature from the rooms and place it somewhere else, either available upon request, a library or the lobby, or simply give it to the base book lounge or library.
    I honestly would like to see this challenge brought, so long as it was by an organization that is truly trying to do something like the Giddons are doing, and not some mock up created for the sake of bringing the lawsuit.
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