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Thread: Navy reverses Bible ban

  1. #91
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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Cryptic View Post
    No- Actually, it would involve very little expense to change most, if not nearly all of the currency in circulation: Currency has a life span. simply ptop printing it with the motto. Most, if not nearly all US currency would quickly be motto free.

    As I stated before, cost had no bearing in the Supreme Court decision. Rather, it was an elegent compromise:
    -Has the practice (currency with motto) or cross on public land been in place since before the 1950s?

    -If "no", it goes
    -If "yes", it stays as a historical / cultural relic or practice.

    My bet is that the Gideon bibles in the Nacy Lodges are in the "Yes" category.
    The basic design of currency would still need to be changed. That costs money to do. It has not been worth that money, particularly since it has already been ruled to have very little significant relation to a particular religion, and much more historical value.

    The same cannot be said legitimately about Bibles in hotel rooms, no matter how long they have been there. Just being used to something does not automatically give it historical value, especially not when it is specifically about a religion (the Bible is connected to Christianity, while God can be pretty much the god of any religion).

    You cannot show this "1950s" thing you keep attempting to claim. That has absolutely little to do with whether something is acceptable. Pretty sure children were learning about the Bible and Christian beliefs in school long before the 50s and those still went away.

    Frequently Asked Questions - Religion | First Amendment Center

    This is the real test of acceptability:
    In its 1971 decision Lemon v. Kurtzman, the Supreme Court set forth a three-pronged inquiry commonly known as the Lemon test. To pass this test, thereby allowing the display or motto to remain, the government conduct (1) must have a secular purpose, (2) must have a principal or primary effect that does not advance or inhibit religion, and (3) cannot foster an excessive government entanglement with religion.
    Nothing whatsoever to do with length of time it has lasted.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  2. #92
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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by apdst View Post
    Then why are you pissin about it?
    I'm not "pissin about it." Would you care to find the post where I actually objected to anything? If the one post of mine that you quoted is an example of "pissin about it," then methinks thou art barking uppeth the wrong tree.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

  3. #93
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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    The point is neither are promoting religion by allowing the Gideons to provide a courtesy to patrons of overnight lodging. Only those who would deny that simple courtesy because it is seen as related to religion are promoting anything, i.e. denial of people's right to exercise religion as they choose or enjoy a simple courtesy that no doubt provides comfort and is of value to some.
    I don't think they are either; however, I could conceivably see the difference between it at a Holiday Inn and a Navy lodge. Hence the "devil's advocate" part of my post. To be frank, I could not conceivably care less one way or the other.

    Now, and this is purely a hypothetical that has sort of been addressed earlier in the thread, if the Muslim equivalent of the Gideons wanted to distribute copies of the Koran in Navy lodge rooms and were denied, I could see that being perceived as preferential treatment being granted to one religion over another. However, I highly doubt that will ever actually happen. Whereas if the same group wanted to distribute copies of the Koran in Holiday Inn rooms and were told to go pound sand, I don't think they'd have much (if any) legal recourse.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    No it doesn't appear to be endorsing religion. All it appears to be is the tradition of the Gideons placing Bibles in hotel rooms for the use of anybody who might wish to use one. If anything it appears to be the Navy quite correctly adhering to the Constitutional mandate that the government will not interfere in any way with the free exercise of religion.
    Just because you don't think it does, doesn't mean other people agree. Many can easily see that it would promote religion for a government run hotel to provide religious texts of one kind (no matter where those texts actually came from) to its guests, but not offer any other religious texts to them. That can easily be seen as promoting religion. If the government was taking away Bibles from people when they entered the Navy Lodge, that would be prohibiting free exercise of religion. Refusing to place donated religious books of any kind in the rooms in no way inhibits anyone's exercise of their religion, at all.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

  5. #95
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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    I don't think they are either; however, I could conceivably see the difference between it at a Holiday Inn and a Navy lodge. Hence the "devil's advocate" part of my post. To be frank, I could not conceivably care less one way or the other.

    Now, and this is purely a hypothetical that has sort of been addressed earlier in the thread, if the Muslim equivalent of the Gideons wanted to distribute copies of the Koran in Navy lodge rooms and were denied, I could see that being perceived as preferential treatment being granted to one religion over another. However, I highly doubt that will ever actually happen. Whereas if the same group wanted to distribute copies of the Koran in Holiday Inn rooms and were told to go pound sand, I don't think they'd have much (if any) legal recourse.
    In fact, it wouldn't have to be a specific religious text. What if I wanted to share my religion with everyone and was willing to print out 24000 (number of Navy Lodge rooms about) single page documents on why I believe that we should start cloning ourselves rather than relying on procreation, they should have to put them in every single room at the Navy Lodge because I have just as much right to have my beliefs (although this isn't truly my beliefs, but it is an actual religion's beliefs) put in the government hotel rooms as the Gideons do.
    "A woman is like a teabag, you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." - Eleanor Roosevelt

    Keep your religion out of other people's marriages.

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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    In fact, it wouldn't have to be a specific religious text. What if I wanted to share my religion with everyone and was willing to print out 24000 (number of Navy Lodge rooms about) single page documents on why I believe that we should start cloning ourselves rather than relying on procreation, they should have to put them in every single room at the Navy Lodge because I have just as much right to have my beliefs (although this isn't truly my beliefs, but it is an actual religion's beliefs) put in the government hotel rooms as the Gideons do.
    I should start a petition to have a copy of Dianetics put in every Navy lodge room, just to be an asshole.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by Kobie View Post
    I don't think they are either; however, I could conceivably see the difference between it at a Holiday Inn and a Navy lodge. Hence the "devil's advocate" part of my post. To be frank, I could not conceivably care less one way or the other.

    Now, and this is purely a hypothetical that has sort of been addressed earlier in the thread, if the Muslim equivalent of the Gideons wanted to distribute copies of the Koran in Navy lodge rooms and were denied, I could see that being perceived as preferential treatment being granted to one religion over another. However, I highly doubt that will ever actually happen. Whereas if the same group wanted to distribute copies of the Koran in Holiday Inn rooms and were told to go pound sand, I don't think they'd have much (if any) legal recourse.
    It would be wrong to deny an Islamic group the ability to place the Qu'ran in hotel rooms, but since that would be against their religious beliefs to do so--they make of the book something far more religious than the average Christian does the Bible--that won't happen. The fact that that Gideons so far are the ONLY group to see it as their ministry to make Bibles available to as many as will receive them should not be a disqualifying factor.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by AlbqOwl View Post
    It would be wrong to deny an Islamic group the ability to place the Qu'ran in hotel rooms, but since that would be against their religious beliefs to do so--they make of the book something far more religious than the average Christian does the Bible--that won't happen. The fact that that Gideons so far are the ONLY group to see it as their ministry to make Bibles available to as many as will receive them should not be a disqualifying factor.
    Again, I didn't say it was.
    Freedom of speech is not freedom from criticism.

  9. #99
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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Just because you don't think it does, doesn't mean other people agree. Many can easily see that it would promote religion for a government run hotel to provide religious texts of one kind (no matter where those texts actually came from) to its guests, but not offer any other religious texts to them. That can easily be seen as promoting religion. If the government was taking away Bibles from people when they entered the Navy Lodge, that would be prohibiting free exercise of religion. Refusing to place donated religious books of any kind in the rooms in no way inhibits anyone's exercise of their religion, at all.
    In this particular case, those people who disagree would be very wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Top Cat View Post
    At least Bill saved his transgressions for grown women. Not suggesting what he did was OK. But he didn't chase 14 year olds.

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    Re: Navy reverses Bible ban

    Quote Originally Posted by roguenuke View Post
    Just because you don't think it does, doesn't mean other people agree. Many can easily see that it would promote religion for a government run hotel to provide religious texts of one kind (no matter where those texts actually came from) to its guests, but not offer any other religious texts to them. That can easily be seen as promoting religion. If the government was taking away Bibles from people when they entered the Navy Lodge, that would be prohibiting free exercise of religion. Refusing to place donated religious books of any kind in the rooms in no way inhibits anyone's exercise of their religion, at all.
    The government is not providing the books. It is not prohibiting the Gideons from doing so at the request of those who would like to have access to the Bibles or just because they like seeing them in the rooms.
    "I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it." --Benjamin Franklin 1776

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