• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Ukraine Says It Destroyed Part of Armed Convoy From Russia

jmotivator said:
I don't need to hear Russia's side of it. The facts of the case speak for themselves. A Russian convoy was destroyed in Ukrainian territory. The simple fact that they were in Ukrainian territory is all the justification needed by the Ukrainian Government. Geography trumps any bull**** Russian claim.
Click to expand...

Ok, if you don't need to hear both sides, fine. Hope you never get called for jury duty!
 
Rainman05 said:
...

I'm not saying that it doesn't make the intentions to get something from ukraine clear, whether it's invasion or something else...

I'm just pointing out that ukraine was in a lose-lose position here and there is no escape from this.
Click to expand...

No, that is very different than your first post in this thread where you called the Ukrainian action "stupid".

Putin would be stupid to use this as a casus belli since his own people know he is full of crap and the outside world is clear eyed on who is at fault here.
 
jmotivator said:
No, that is very different than your first post in this thread where you called the Ukrainian action "stupid".

Putin would be stupid to use this as a casus belli since his own people know he is full of crap and the outside world is clear eyed on who is at fault here.
Click to expand...

If convoy destroyed was inside Ukraine territory, Ukraine was on it's own right and the action was indeed stupid. There is nothing weird here.
 
Montecresto said:
Ok, if you don't need to hear both sides, fine. Hope you never get called for jury duty!
Click to expand...

They violated the sovereign borders of another country. That can not be denied. The Ukrainian military took the appropriate action.

But yeah, sit there on your hands and wait to see what Putin says. I'm sure he will clear it all up for you. :roll:
 
Coin said:
If convoy destroyed was inside Ukraine territory, Ukraine was on it's own right and the action was indeed stupid. There is nothing weird here.
Click to expand...

If Rainman05 was calling the actions of the Russian convoy stupid then he and I would be in agreement. He called the actions of the Ukrainians stupid, however, because he thought it gave Russia a justification for war.
 
jmotivator said:
If Rainman05 was calling the actions of the Russian convoy stupid then he and I would be in agreement. He called the actions of the Ukrainians stupid, however, because he thought it gave Russia a justification for war.
Click to expand...

That's the point.

Because it's Ukraine, it's a small player.
 
jmotivator said:
It isn't Casus Belli by any stretch of the imagination. These were Russians invading Ukrainian sovereign territory. The Ukranians were well within their right to blow the crap out of the Russians.

You can't invade another country and then claim casus belli when they kill you. I mean, that is Hitler-level militarized cynicism. I guess Putin knows his bull**** will be believed by some people...
Click to expand...

You really need to read this...I agree with historian on all his points
Putin’s War and the Hitler Thing | The XX Committee
 
Rainman05 said:
...

I'm not saying that it doesn't make the intentions to get something from ukraine clear, whether it's invasion or something else...

I'm just pointing out that ukraine was in a lose-lose position here and there is no escape from this.
Click to expand...

If one is in a no-win situation, best to finish on the plus side of the loss.

They warned Putin not to send the convoy without allowing full inspection of it's contents. Putin apparently didn't want to comply. Smoldering trucks and maintaining border sovereignty is better than surrender and uncertainty.
 
It's death by a 1,000 small cuts while Russia slowly escalates and better equips the "separatists" or take a stand. I think Ukraine took the right approach.
 
DA60 said:
'Ukraine said its troops attacked and partially destroyed a column of armed vehicles that had crossed the border from Russian territory, while Russia said it was concerned about an attack on another convoy carrying aid.

Ukrainian government troops engaged the vehicles that had arrived overnight through a rebel-held section of the border, Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the country’s military, told reporters in Kiev today. Ukrainian soldiers continue to come under shelling, including rounds fired from Russia, he said.'

Ukraine Says It Destroyed Part of Armed Convoy From Russia - Bloomberg


Uh oh?

Is this a one time mistake or an escalation?
Click to expand...

An escalation? It's the destruction of an invading column from a foreign country. Good for them and I hope they killed them all.
 
Rainman05 said:
It was stupid, that's what it was.

That 10s video on the link is not going to hold up in court.
Unless the Ukrainian govt can prove, like really, really prove with loads of evidence that nobody can twist or deny, that indeed the convoy was armed and was in fact, a military operation disguised as a humanitarian one, then it's going to be in big trouble because now Russia has casus belli.


EDIT: Putin will be singing this tune all the way to Kyiv.
Click to expand...


Unfortunately, we've reached a point that Putin could leave some wreckage on the border and claim Ukraine fired at Russian forces unprovoked. The propaganda guys can work on an explanation to feed the 'alternative' media and sow uncertainty later. Countries like Russia don't need a real causus belli, they'll just take what they want if you let them.
 
jmotivator said:
No, that is very different than your first post in this thread where you called the Ukrainian action "stupid".

Putin would be stupid to use this as a casus belli since his own people know he is full of crap and the outside world is clear eyed on who is at fault here.
Click to expand...

No it's not.
The action that Ukraine took was stupid. That doesn't invalidate anything else I said, in fact, it all fits together.
 
Ben K. said:
Unfortunately, we've reached a point that Putin could leave some wreckage on the border and claim Ukraine fired at Russian forces unprovoked. The propaganda guys can work on an explanation to feed the 'alternative' media and sow uncertainty later. Countries like Russia don't need a real causus belli, they'll just take what they want if you let them.
Click to expand...

That's not beyond the scope of imagination you know. But maybe they didn't think about that yet and instead, opted for this.
 
jmotivator said:
They violated the sovereign borders of another country. That can not be denied. The Ukrainian military took the appropriate action.

But yeah, sit there on your hands and wait to see what Putin says. I'm sure he will clear it all up for you. :roll:
Click to expand...

Its Not just Putin that needs to be heard from.
 
Erod said:
I propose we ask Ukraine to protect our borders, too!
Click to expand...
Ha...we're selling them about a half a billion dollars in razor wire to separate them from Crimea.

If they think that will keep out an invading army, we have this old bridge in the desert we could sell them.
 
DA60 said:
'Ukraine said its troops attacked and partially destroyed a column of armed vehicles that had crossed the border from Russian territory, while Russia said it was concerned about an attack on another convoy carrying aid.

Ukrainian government troops engaged the vehicles that had arrived overnight through a rebel-held section of the border, Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the country’s military, told reporters in Kiev today. Ukrainian soldiers continue to come under shelling, including rounds fired from Russia, he said.'

Ukraine Says It Destroyed Part of Armed Convoy From Russia - Bloomberg

Uh oh?

Is this a one time mistake or an escalation?
Click to expand...

I wonder how Putin will handle this one.
 
iliveonramen said:
You really need to read this...I agree with historian on all his points
Putin’s War and the Hitler Thing | The XX Committee
Click to expand...

That article is simply making my point. The stupidity of claiming casus belli from this skirmish would rest with Putin by the mere act of claiming it. Both logically -- given that he instigated it -- and rationally -- because it would prove disastrous to Russia in the long term. War in the Ukraine is not in Russia's best interest and yet the idiot keeps pushing it.
 
Rainman05 said:
It was stupid, that's what it was.

That 10s video on the link is not going to hold up in court.
Unless the Ukrainian govt can prove, like really, really prove with loads of evidence that nobody can twist or deny, that indeed the convoy was armed and was in fact, a military operation disguised as a humanitarian one, then it's going to be in big trouble because now Russia has casus belli.


EDIT: Putin will be singing this tune all the way to Kyiv.
Click to expand...


I had understood the convoy was in Ukraine. No matter what, it was not allowed to be there, if it was Russian. That is the problem Russia has. It would have created a casus belli, if it did not have permission.
 
jmotivator said:
This is the oddest of odd ploys by the Russians. They have a heavily armed convoy heading to Ukraine that they claim are "humanitarian aid" that crosses the border against the Ukrainian government's orders, and they want to complain about getting shot at?

The amount of raw cynicism in this stunt is simply stunning.
Click to expand...

Stunning, as you say and if also true.
 
jmotivator said:
That article is simply making my point. The stupidity of claiming casus belli from this skirmish would rest with Putin by the mere act of claiming it. Both logically -- given that he instigated it -- and rationally -- because it would prove disastrous to Russia in the long term. War in the Ukraine is not in Russia's best interest and yet the idiot keeps pushing it.
Click to expand...

I agree...which is why I thought you'd appreciate the article.
 
There's still a lot of uncertainty other than that a some military vehicles entered Ukraine. Whether they were Russian vehicles or vehicles being smuggled into Ukraine by the pro-Russia separatists remains to be seen. Personally, I suspect that the latter scenario probably carries more weight. It would be odd for Russia not have provided sufficient support to ensure the success of one of its military operations, even if the operation were a probe.

From the BBC:

The alleged incursion by Russian military vehicles into Ukraine was witnessed on Thursday by two UK newspaper reporters...

It is not known whether the troops moving with the military column were Russian or pro-Russian separatists.

BBC News - Ukraine 'hits Russia armoured column' amid aid impasse
 
donsutherland1 said:
There's still a lot of uncertainty other than that a some military vehicles entered Ukraine. Whether they were Russian vehicles or vehicles being smuggled into Ukraine by the pro-Russia separatists remains to be seen. Personally, I suspect that the latter scenario probably carries more weight. It would be odd for Russia not have provided sufficient support to ensure the success of one of its military operations, even if the operation were a probe.

From the BBC:

The alleged incursion by Russian military vehicles into Ukraine was witnessed on Thursday by two UK newspaper reporters...

It is not known whether the troops moving with the military column were Russian or pro-Russian separatists.

BBC News - Ukraine 'hits Russia armoured column' amid aid impasse
Click to expand...

There is even some talk of friendly fire...that the Ukrainians blew up their own tanks/APC's.

Did Ukraine Attack Its Own Tanks? White House "Can't Confirm Russian Convoy Was Destroyed By Kiev" | Zero Hedge

No idea if it is true or not.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom