• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

Wiggen said:
Spoken like a man who doesn't give a damn how many American soldiers die because the traitor Snowden provided your boy Putin with military secrets. The only thing that concerns you is your little corner of the world.
Click to expand...
Snowden has not endangered any soldiers.
 
Wiggen said:
Spoken like a man who doesn't give a damn how many American soldiers die because the traitor Snowden provided your boy Putin with military secrets. The only thing that concerns you is your little corner of the world.
Click to expand...



How specifically did he cause any soldier to die? what specific info?


Manning on the other hand, I agree.
 
Wiggen said:
Well, there were lots of places he could have gone other than Russia.
Click to expand...
Do any of those countries have the means of physically preventing the US from taking him or assassinating him?

And of course, that supposes that you are perfectly OK with him taking American military secrets in the first place. I just don't get it. People get their panties in a wad because the NSA listened to telephone conversations or emails or whatever, yet the fact that our enemy who is rapidly rebuilding his military forces now has all of the NSA secrets doesn't concern them at all. In fact, they rejoice in it.
Click to expand...
If those secrets contain the fact the government is spying on Americans and how they are spying on Americans I have no problem with him taking military secrets.Everyone in the military and elected official took an oath to defend the Constitution, you do not do that by wiping your ass with the constitution.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
This is a real thread, Henry, not a conspiracy thread. We really don't need that "CIA created al Qaeda" nonsense here.
Click to expand...

Yes OWO, I am well aware of your allergy to true statements.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Yeah, they probably just found 40,000 Americans that hate America and other Americans to work there.

That or maybe their detractors don't know as much about a secret spy agency as they think they do.

I wonder which is more likely?
Click to expand...

of the two options you've presented, the 2nd is more likely, but you've presented a false dichotomy. it doesn't mean that someone hates america and other americans just because they're okay with the government spying on every single citizen. many people believe that it is justified, and that if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear. i don't agree with that opinion but i wouldn't say that that opinion means someone is evil or hates america. thats where your argument failed.
 
bg85 said:
of the two options you've presented, the 2nd is more likely, but you've presented a false dichotomy. it doesn't mean that someone hates america and other americans just because they're okay with the government spying on every single citizen. many people believe that it is justified, and that if you have nothing to hide then you have nothing to fear. i don't agree with that opinion but i wouldn't say that that opinion means someone is evil or hates america. thats where your argument failed.
Click to expand...
I offered an extreme in response to the one you offered. Considering how many people work at NSA, isn't amazing how many people haven't come forward? Maybe it's because they- they who are more informed about the scope and limitations of these operations, they who are intimately familiar with the oversight of them- generally agree with what NSA does.

That idea seems totally anathema to the Ruby Ridge type crowd who seem to insist, bereft of all evidence, that they're being spied on. They just refuse to believe that most likely possibility.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
I offered an extreme in response to the one you offered. Considering how many people work at NSA, isn't amazing how many people haven't come forward? Maybe it's because they- they who are more informed about the scope and limitations of these operations, they who are intimately familiar with the oversight of them- generally agree with what NSA does.
Click to expand...

and what i'm saying is that people may not have come forward because yeah they generally agree with what the NSA does. that says nothing about whether the NSA is spying on everyone.

your argument: the NSA isn't spying on everyone. we know this because there are 40,000 people who work there who haven't come forward saying they're spying on everyone, and since those 40,000 people aren't evil, they must not be spying on everyone.

the problem with that argument is that it assumes only evil people would want to spy on everyone, and anyone who isn't evil who witnessed such activities would report them to the public. that's simply not true. there are plenty of people who are not evil who think that spying on everyone is perfectly justified, and who wouldn't report it to the public.

does that clarify my point a bit more?
 
jamesrage said:
Do any of those countries have the means of physically preventing the US from taking him or assassinating him?

If those secrets contain the fact the government is spying on Americans and how they are spying on Americans I have no problem with him taking military secrets.Everyone in the military and elected official took an oath to defend the Constitution, you do not do that by wiping your ass with the constitution.
Click to expand...

And if you think that the only 'secrets' contained in the NSA files dealt with 'spying' on americans, then you are a fool. He took everything.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/03/07/politics/snowden-leaks-russia/index.html

He could have gone to a lot of countries besides Russia and been perfectly safe. But he chose Russia, because he knew he'd receive a hero's welcome. He's a traitor and I hope he rots in hell.
 
Last edited:
ReverendHellh0und said:
To hell with the ****hole of a country you want to turn this great nation into.



u mad, bro?




idiotic statement is idiotic.


your government is ****ing your without any lube, and all you can say is "I love my government!". ;)





I'm not calling you anything. *shrug*
Click to expand...

You've made your point perfectly clear. You hate your country and you don't give a damn what military secrets were provided to Putin and his cronies. Good for you.
 
jamesrage said:
Snowden has not endangered any soldiers.
Click to expand...

You have no firickin' way of knowing that. You've convinced your government-hating little mind that the NSA files only contained the crap you want to believe it contained. It was the National Security Agency, for Christ's sake! It contained government secrets dealing with the security of the United States - the country you profess to love. But go ahead and continue the worshipping of the weak-assed traitor.

Screw it. I'm done arguing this with you and your country-hating, Snowden-loving crowd. Enjoy each other.
 
bg85 said:
and what i'm saying is that people may not have come forward because yeah they generally agree with what the NSA does. that says nothing about whether the NSA is spying on everyone.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't that be odd? NSA just happened to find the people that have no problem with it?

your argument: the NSA isn't spying on everyone. we know this because there are 40,000 people who work there who haven't come forward saying they're spying on everyone, and since those 40,000 people aren't evil, they must not be spying on everyone.
Click to expand...

No, that's not my argument. My argument is there's no evidence for it, and I generally don't believe things with no evidence. I don't believe Leonardo DiCaprio is FDR's grandson, I don't believe that aircraft carriers can fly, etc. Because I've seen no evidence of it. That 40,000 mysteriously don't have a problem with what NSA does only acts as corroborating evidence to my position.

the problem with that argument is that it assumes only evil people would want to spy on everyone, and anyone who isn't evil who witnessed such activities would report them to the public. that's simply not true. there are plenty of people who are not evil who think that spying on everyone is perfectly justified, and who wouldn't report it to the public.
Click to expand...

And yet, there's no evidence of spying, so it really doesn't matter.

does that clarify my point a bit more?
Click to expand...

Sure, but without evidence we're still left with nothing.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
Wouldn't that be odd? NSA just happened to find the people that have no problem with it?
Click to expand...

no, it's not odd, because there are WAY more than 40,000 people who have no problem with it in this country (that was my original post, to which you sarcastically replied "okay")

OldWorldOrder said:
No, that's not my argument. My argument is there's no evidence for it, and I generally don't believe things with no evidence. I don't believe Leonardo DiCaprio is FDR's grandson, I don't believe that aircraft carriers can fly, etc. Because I've seen no evidence of it. That 40,000 mysteriously don't have a problem with what NSA does only acts as corroborating evidence to my position.
Click to expand...

in this same snippet, you say "No that's not my argument" as though you didn't use the fact that 40,000 people haven't come forward as evidence to support your position, THEN you say that 40,000 people not having a problem with the NSA supports your position.

my first post in this thread was not intended to address your entire overall position, but rather your argument that 40,000 people not having come forward is any kind of evidence to support your position. it's not evidence to support your position. 40,000 folks not having a problem with the NSA is not evidence of anything other than that at least 40,000 people don't have a problem with the NSA.

i mean, you could go work for the NSA, and if they were spying on everyone, would you report it to the public? maybe you would, but there are plenty (many more than 40,000) people who are not evil who would not report it to the public. that's why the 40,000 employees argument fails.
 
bg85 said:
no, it's not odd, because there are WAY more than 40,000 people who have no problem with it in this country (that was my original post, to which you sarcastically replied "okay")
Click to expand...

And...they'd all just end up working at the same place, coincidentally?

in this same snippet, you say "No that's not my argument" as though you didn't use the fact that 40,000 people haven't come forward as evidence to support your position, THEN you say that 40,000 people not having a problem with the NSA supports your position.
Click to expand...

It supports my argument. It does not encompass my argument. There's a difference. That Michael Jordan has the highest scoring average over his career in the history of the NBA supports my argument that he's the best NBA player ever, but it does not encompass it.

my first post in this thread was not intended to address your entire overall position, but rather your argument that 40,000 people not having come forward is any kind of evidence to support your position. it's not evidence to support your position. 40,000 folks not having a problem with the NSA is not evidence of anything other than that at least 40,000 people don't have a problem with the NSA.

i mean, you could go work for the NSA, and if they were spying on everyone, would you report it to the public? maybe you would, but there are plenty (many more than 40,000) people who are not evil who would not report it to the public. that's why the 40,000 employees argument fails.
Click to expand...

That's just very odd. Instead of getting a cross-section of the population, for some reason this one agency- with its myriad of military members, analysts, statisticians, linguists, mathematicians, cryptologists, etc- somehow gets a very specific, homogeneous portion of them. What do you think the statistical deviation would be that 99% of them would be people that wouldn't have a problem with it? What percentage of Americans in general do you think would have a problem with it?

What would explain the difference in those two numbers?
 
OldWorldOrder said:
And...they'd all just end up working at the same place, coincidentally?
Click to expand...

well it's not a coincidence. no one is going to work somewhere they think is evil, so naturally the only people who apply to work there are from the group of people who don't think it's evil.

It supports my argument. It does not encompass my argument. There's a difference. That Michael Jordan has the highest scoring average over his career in the history of the NBA supports my argument that he's the best NBA player ever, but it does not encompass it.
Click to expand...

you're hung up on the use of the term "argument". your overall position (to paraphrase) is that snowden is a douche. that's fine. he might be a douche. one of the arguments you used to support that he is a douche is the 40,000 employees argument. THAT argument is invalid, which is what i've been trying to explain to you. i'm not addressing ANYTHING about the overall position of whether or not snowden is a douche.

That's just very odd. Instead of getting a cross-section of the population, for some reason this one agency- with its myriad of military members, analysts, statisticians, linguists, mathematicians, cryptologists, etc- somehow gets a very specific, homogeneous portion of them. What do you think the statistical deviation would be that 99% of them would be people that wouldn't have a problem with it? What percentage of Americans in general do you think would have a problem with it?
Click to expand...

as i said above, the only people who apply to the NSA are those who don't think it's evil. it's not like they just take 40,000 random folks and say "okay you work for the NSA now" and every single one of those people just happen to agree the NSA isn't evil. the reason it's a specific, homogeneous portion of the general population is that only a specific, homogeneous portion of the general population applies to work there! (specifically, the population that doesn't have any problems with the NSA)

oh and i think you mean "standard deviation" instead of "statistical deviation" but neither one really makes any sense in that context. i think "probability" is the word you're looking for.
 
Last edited:
bg85 said:
well it's not a coincidence. no one is going to work somewhere they think is evil, so naturally the only people who apply to work there are from the group of people who don't think it's evil.
Click to expand...

...how would they have known?

you're hung up on the use of the term "argument". your overall position (to paraphrase) is that snowden is a douche. that's fine. he might be a douche. one of the arguments you used to support that he is a douche is the 40,000 employees argument. THAT argument is invalid, which is what i've been trying to explain to you. i'm not addressing ANYTHING about the overall position of whether or not snowden is a douche.
Click to expand...

Yes, one of my points is that it's extremely unlikely for 40,000 random people to all agree with spying on Americans. Not 40,000 people in general, but out of a cross-section of Americans, that 99.9% of that cross section group would have no problem. The odds of that occurring are extremely low.

as i said above, the only people who apply to the NSA are those who don't think it's evil. it's not like they just take 40,000 random folks and say "okay you work for the NSA now" and every single one of those people just happen to agree the NSA isn't evil. the reason it's a specific, homogeneous portion of the general population is that only a specific, homogeneous portion of the general population applies to work there! (specifically, the population that doesn't have any problems with the NSA)
Click to expand...

How would they know anything about NSA allegedly spying on Americans? It's November 2014. Snowden came out in the spring/summer of 2013. NSA didn't have a huge turnover of employees since then.
 
TeleKat said:
Patriotism isn't about obeying the law or loyalty to the government. It's about being loyal to the country and the ideals it was founded on. Arguably, Snowden showed that more than any other scumbag in the NSA. At least he didn't feel the need to boldface lie to the American public about the government's surveillance habits.
Click to expand...

He's dirt.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
...how would they have known?
Click to expand...

it's well known the NSA spies on people. anyone who applies to the NSA is going to be the type of person who doesn't mind working for an organization that spies on people.

Yes, one of my points is that it's extremely unlikely for 40,000 random people to all agree with spying on Americans. Not 40,000 people in general, but out of a cross-section of Americans, that 99.9% of that cross section group would have no problem. The odds of that occurring are extremely low.

How would they know anything about NSA allegedly spying on Americans? It's November 2014. Snowden came out in the spring/summer of 2013. NSA didn't have a huge turnover of employees since then.
Click to expand...

but they're not random! the cross section that works there came from another cross section - the folks who applied there. no one is going to apply there who has moral issues with spying on private citizens, because it was known already that the NSA did that. the extent to which perhaps not, but anyone who is going to apply to a spy agency is probably not going to have any issues with that agency doing some spying.
 
bg85 said:
it's well known the NSA spies on people. anyone who applies to the NSA is going to be the type of person who doesn't mind working for an organization that spies on people.



but they're not random! the cross section that works there came from another cross section - the folks who applied there. no one is going to apply there who has moral issues with spying on private citizens, because it was known already that the NSA did that. the extent to which perhaps not, but anyone who is going to apply to a spy agency is probably not going to have any issues with that agency doing some spying.
Click to expand...
???

NSA spies on other countries. It doesn't spy on American citizens without a specific warrant. Only after Snowden did people start to wrongfully think so (as we see in this thread and with even your post). So there's no reason to believe that prior to 2013 anyone who applied to work there would be okay with spying in American citizens at all.

After 2013, maybe some people who wanted to do so did apply. If hired, they were probably highly disappointed.
 
OldWorldOrder said:
???

NSA spies on other countries. It doesn't spy on American citizens without a specific warrant. Only after Snowden did people start to wrongfully think so (as we see in this thread and with even your post). So there's no reason to believe that prior to 2013 anyone who applied to work there would be okay with spying in American citizens at all.

After 2013, maybe some people who wanted to do so did apply. If hired, they were probably highly disappointed.
Click to expand...

i've always thought the NSA spied on whoever the NSA wanted to spy on.
 
bg85 said:
i've always thought the NSA spied on whoever the NSA wanted to spy on.
Click to expand...

And they do - Snowden and Wiki Leaks have put a light on the illegality of our governments doings and there's no putting that toothpaste back in the tube.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom