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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Wrong. He flew to China, and then flew to Russia, carrying 4 laptops crammed full of US National Security in them in order to trade for passage, at which point he basically became Putins' Agent. Snowden chose to trade with and seek the embrace of the autocrats. He's welcome to fly back to the US any time he wants, and he doesn't, because he prefers it precisely where he is.
    If you have any evidence for any of that, a link would be nice.

    And he simply WAS in the airport in Russia for over a month. His passport WAS rescinded. From NBC News: Edward Snowden: A Timeline - NBC News

    June 23, 2013: Snowden leaves Hong Kong for Ecuador, with a planned stopover in Russia. But he is stranded at Sheremetyevo International Airport in Moscow after U.S. authorities rescind his passport. He spends the next month living in limbo in the airport’s transit center.
    So you have evidence that's not true. Let's see it. Also, remember this? Bolivia: Presidential plane forced to land after Snowden rumors - CNN.com

    (CNN) -- Bolivian officials say their country's presidential plane had to land in Austria on Tuesday after false rumors circulated that former U.S. National Security Agency contractor Edward Snowden was aboard the aircraft.

    Portuguese authorities wouldn't let President Evo Morales' plane land for refueling in Lisbon, Bolivian Defense Minister Ruben Saavedra told CNN en Español. French authorities also wouldn't let the plane enter their airspace, he said.
    So if' he's Putin's agent, the U.S. sure made that easy when they rescinded his passport while en route to Ecuador, then grounded planes the U.S. suspected of carrying him OUT of Russia and Putin's grasp.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    How is a private conversation or a private email between two citizens suddenly exempt from the 4th? When you pick up a phone to call a friend, all of your data is going through a third party, so do you support the government eavesdropping on any and all communication of every kind?

    It's also important to note that Smith v Maryland involved simply keeping a record of phone numbers called, not actual recording of conversations and emails.
    The phone company doesn't keep a recording of your phone call, but when you send an email it is stored on the server until deleted. So you have entrusted the email company with the security of the data and also lost the privacy of that data especially when you have agreed to the sharing of this data in your user agreement.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    The phone company doesn't keep a recording of your phone call, but when you send an email it is stored on the server until deleted. So you have entrusted the email company with the security of the data and also lost the privacy of that data especially when you have agreed to the sharing of this data in your user agreement.
    So it is your opinion that all email of every citizen and non-citizen, is property of the US government to observe, analyze, collect, and redistribute? Are you that big of a statist?

    And the government HAS been listening to phone calls, so by your very definition they broke the law.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    No, my question does not require an massive surveillance program. It merely requires the existence of secret material.
    And I answered your question, and speculated on what the Founders would have thought about massive surveillance on U.S. citizens, secret courts, etc. Do you think they'd have signed off on the NSA programs? Agreed that a FISA court could meet in secret, make secret rulings that not even all members of Congress can be informed of? That they'd have agreed that a handful of elected representatives, and the secret court and police could unilaterally make dramatic expansions of intelligence activities by that early government directed against U.S. citizens/residents, and not inform the public about any of it?

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    .... Do you think they'd have signed off on the NSA programs? Agreed that a FISA court could meet in secret, make secret rulings that not even all members of Congress can be informed of? ....
    It would not surprise me, if the answer were: They would have, if confronted by the problems we have recently had. They were practical people. They would have probably put better institutional checks and controls in place, though.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    So it is your opinion that all email of every citizen and non-citizen, is property of the US government to observe, analyze, collect, and redistribute? Are you that big of a statist?

    And the government HAS been listening to phone calls, so by your very definition they broke the law.
    There is still a lot of argument ahead. And I am honestly not sure about where we should go.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by RabidAlpaca View Post
    So it is your opinion that all email of every citizen and non-citizen, is property of the US government to observe, analyze, collect, and redistribute? Are you that big of a statist?
    Nowhere did I say anything of the sort, are you really so paranoid that you don't see a difference between a private company and the government? The users gave the company the ability to share the data and the company chose to share that data with the NSA. If you got "spied" on you only have yourself to blame for not reading the fine print.

    And the government HAS been listening to phone calls, so by your very definition they broke the law.
    and what definition would that be? I never claimed all phone calls were privates I only pointed out the differences between phone calls and emails

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I find it funny how many people think NSA is "breaking the law", yet the majority of those FISA federal judges disagree. To some random people on the internet with no law experience or education, it's clear it's illegal, yet to professionals it's not. Hmm, I wonder which carries more weight.
    Oh, well, now that I know the secret court issuing secret orders has approved of something, then that settles it. It's legal and obviously we shouldn't question those secret orders we can't know about! Glad you cleared that up.

    Besides, there are obviously solid mechanisms to ensure the NSA et al are complying with the secret orders of the secret court. Whistleblowers that go to the press are prosecuted and charged under the espionage act, which carries the death penalty. Manning was held in punitive solitary confinement for months, against the advice of physicians, and cut off from the world. The press that reports on their leaks are threatened with jail if they don't reveal their sources, which has, as intended, put a screeching halt on that type of reporting as journalists can no longer promise to protect sources because to do so means jail time. Reporters have had their phones tapped. Whistle blowers who tried to address things internally have hit brick walls at step one of the process, which is why several went public. So these ways of checking the spy agencies should work great, because all anyone has to lose if they come forward with wrongdoing is a life term in prison! And journalists just risk jail if they report on the leaks!

    Congressional oversight should also be effective. Why, at least a half dozen can be read into the most secret programs. And of course they can't reveal anything of what they know - they can't even tell their fellow members of Congress. And when called to testify, we can be sure that the heads of the agencies will tell us the "least untruthful" answer possible! So, they'll lie as little as possible! I know that makes me feel better.

    And when properly vetted members of Congress and their staffs with appropriate security clearances do investigate the spy agencies, the agencies will spy on them, removing documents that are inconvenient, causing Congress to print the document, and carry it out in secret, and store in a damn safe to make sure they can have continued access to it. Which is a good thing because the document was disappeared from the electronic records. So the agencies have shown contempt for Congress and their oversight role, which means we should trust that Congress can effectively oversee these agencies.

    In short, there is no worries I can see. It's legal, the secret court issues secret orders telling us so, and all the oversight mechanisms appear to be working fine.
    Last edited by JasperL; 08-14-14 at 09:55 AM.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    Nowhere did I say anything of the sort, are you really so paranoid that you don't see a difference between a private company and the government? The users gave the company the ability to share the data and the company chose to share that data with the NSA. If you got "spied" on you only have yourself to blame for not reading the fine print.

    and what definition would that be? I never claimed all phone calls were privates I only pointed out the differences between phone calls and emails
    Your definition was that if any third party has access to your data, the government can take it and do whatever it wants with it legally. That was your claim, and it's false.

    Just because you rent an apartment from a company does not mean the company can give the government unwarranted access to search your domicile. Likewise, using a telephone does not somehow negate the 4th amendment and grant the government the right to listen to your phone calls. The company may or may not have a legal basis to giving the information away (though I still think that should be illegal), however, that does not change the illegality of the government then listening to those phone calls.

    These companies are in most cases not willingly giving over the information, it mostly comes from court orders that have been handed out like candy. Companies like Google, for instance, aren't even allowed to talk about WHAT they are under direct orders from the government to hand over because the government issues gag orders.

    The argument you're essentially making is that if a third party has access to your private information, the government can use their patriot act powers to order the company to hand over access to it. That means that just about everything is up for grabs. Your home if you're renting, all of your phone calls, all of your emails, everything. Why you think that should just be perfectly legal blows my mind.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    The out of control NSA has been spying on the American people for some time Metadata is still data, and I think that in the modern era there are things that need to happen to ensure freedom and liberty to the People. The first and foremost is that 4th needs to be expanded, strengthened, and obeyed. Right now our government pretty well just carries itself as if the 4th doesn't exist.

    The mega datafarming and unwarranted spying would have to come to an end too. I know, lots of people scared of freedom will cry about how we're at more "risk" without it (though they never seem able to quantify this risk), that the terrorists will get us, that the US couldn't compete in international intelligence, and blah. But most of that is just bunk to excuse gross expansions of government power against the rights and liberties of the People. I'll take Free over Big Brother any day of the week.
    You know the time is right to take control, we gotta take offense against the status quo

    Quote Originally Posted by A. de Tocqueville
    "I should have loved freedom, I believe, at all times, but in the time in which we live I am ready to worship it."

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