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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Two separate things.

    1: NSA spying

    2: Snowden spying

    The problem so many have is that they cannot think of them as two separate things. To use a historical example: Benedict Arnold had some pretty good reasons for being pissed off at the revolutionary army and continental congress. This does not excuse his turning coat.
    The problem I have with labeling Snowden "a spy" is that he's already been convicted in the court of public (government, in this case) opinion. He caused damage to the sitting administration for exposing all of the wrongdoing the sitting administration is presiding over. This does not exonerate the sitting administration, calling Snowden a spy.

    The only thing I can think of that kind of compares would be to ask you to image that your neighbor is having some words with a cop outside his house on the street. You see a calm conversation and then watch the cop suddenly pull out his asp and start beating the ever living piss out of your neighbor. If you stop the cop, you are in the wrong and will also go to jail after catching some of that beating yourself... but stopping the beating would be the right thing to do. You would, however, be guilty of assaulting an officer, obstruction, and resisting arrest before you even set foot in a courtroom. A guilty verdict does not exonerate the cop for assaulting the citizen, but nothing bad is going to happen to him.
    Last edited by Gonzo Rodeo; 08-14-14 at 03:08 AM.
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    The problem I have with labeling Snowden "a spy" is that he's already been convicted in the court of public (government, in this case) opinion. He caused damage to the sitting administration for exposing all of the wrongdoing the sitting administration is presiding over. This does not exonerate the sitting administration, calling Snowden a spy.

    The only thing I can think of that kind of compares would be to ask you to image that your neighbor is having some words with a cop outside his house on the street. You see a calm conversation and the watch the suddenly pull out his asp and start beating the ever living piss out of your neighbor. If you stop the cop, you are in the wrong and will also go to jail after catching some of that beating yourself... but it would be the right thing to do.
    Snowden has not been convicted by any one. He has yet to stand trial. If he should ever return to the US, he will not stand trial because he embarrassed any one. He will stand trial because he broke the fucking law. And in fact, it is a very good, reasonable law. Information is classified for a reason. Allowing Joe Blow to decide if information should be classified is a really bad idea. If he guesses wrong then the information is still out there.
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    I think it's odd that the Snowden apologists talk about how he is being found guilty without trial and yet they claim he exposed illegal and unconstitutional things and yet those things have not yet been fully determined in a court of law.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Snowden has not been convicted by any one. He has yet to stand trial. If he should ever return to the US, he will not stand trial because he embarrassed any one. He will stand trial because he broke the fucking law. And in fact, it is a very good, reasonable law. Information is classified for a reason. Allowing Joe Blow to decide if information should be classified is a really bad idea. If he guesses wrong then the information is still out there.
    So, you'd agree that had any of the doctors working on the Tuskegee Syphilis Experiment come forward, the damage they would have caused the US Government would have outweighed putting a stop to the barbaric experiments? The guy who blew the lid off that one wasn't a part of the program (so he wasn't sword to secrecy about it), so I guess he's a hero for not breaking a promise?

    How about John White, a lowly O-2 in the Navy that used classified knowledge to publicly call the sitting President a liar and accuse him of manufacturing a casus belli?

    How about Daniel Ellsberg, the guy who leaked the Pentagon Papers? That dealt a huge political blow to the US government and public support of the Viet Nam war. He broke the same law.

    How about Mark Felt - a.k.a. Deep Throat - the guy who brought Nixon down with a leak? He was sworn to secrecy as well. He was the number 2 guy in the FBI at the time, but the decision to declassify stuff resides higher than that, not to mention talking to the press.

    How about Frank Snepp, the CIA spook that wrote and published a book about the inept handling of the fall of Saigon by several US agencies?

    A similar situation happened with an MI 5 agent in the '80s who publicly outed her own agency for classifying citizens and domestic institutions like trade unions as "subversive" so they could be "legally" spied upon. How do you feel about what she did?

    In 1996, Gary Webb of the CIA published a report linking the CIA to cocaine trafficking to support the Contras. Was he a traitor? Traitors sometimes feel really guilty and then commit suicide eight years later by shooting themselves in the head... twice.

    All White House staff members are given Special Access Program (SAP) clearance which includes a blanket statement about the interworkings of the White House and the office of the President. Linda Tripp was no different. So, when she went to the IOC with the truth about the sitting president and another staff member with a particular blue dress with an accusation of perjury , was she violating her contract and acting in bad faith?

    A retired O-5 leaked intel about bad intelligence in the lead up to the Iraq war. Did she break a law, or expose a horrendous wrongdoing?

    Samuel Provance, a low ranking enlisted man in the Army, violated direct orders and exposed the Abu Ghraib scandal to the media. Criminal?

    The government has a habit of punishing those who don't toe the line in these dealings. Qwest communications was blocked from further government contracts after the CEO refused to go along with an NSA request for surveillance back in 2001. They were the only telecommunications company to who refused to act without a FISA court order. Everyone else just rolled over, and Qwest was punished for not wanting to spy on the American people.

    After being ignored by congress and retaliated upon by the NSA in 2002, several officials went public with information about wasteful programs. They highlighted one program that was more focused and, thus, cheaper (and retained more privacy for citizens) than another program called Trailblazer "which automatically collected trillions of domestic communications of Americans in deliberate violation of the U.S. Constitution." After the NSA called Trailblazer a failure due to financial concerns, they sealed the report and never released it to the public. In 2006, the FBI raided the homes of people involved to intimidate them. In 2011, Tom Drake published an article in the New Yorker and did a 60 Minutes interview, calling the program a massive violation of the 4th Amendment. Traitors? Criminals?

    Some of these people are considered whistleblowers, and some of them have criminal records. Hell, some of the whistleblowers did time and then were exonerated after the fact. All of them, however, committed the same crime you accuse Edward Snowden of.
    Last edited by Gonzo Rodeo; 08-14-14 at 04:39 AM.
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    I think it's odd that the Snowden apologists talk about how he is being found guilty without trial and yet they claim he exposed illegal and unconstitutional things and yet those things have not yet been fully determined in a court of law.
    AMENDMENT IV

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


    If the NSA is doing 1% of the stuff Snowden has exposed, the government is blatantly in violation of the Fourth Amendment. If they aren't doing what Snowden has accused them of, then he is guilty of libel and not exposing classified material.

    The problem is, it's very hard to take the Federal Government to court (which is presided over by the Federal Government).
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Stranded in Russia by his own actions. If you break the law, you cannot cry that people want to charge you with a crime.
    The NSA was/still is breaking the law.
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Snowden has not been convicted by any one. He has yet to stand trial. If he should ever return to the US, he will not stand trial because he embarrassed any one. He will stand trial because he broke the fucking law. And in fact, it is a very good, reasonable law. Information is classified for a reason. Allowing Joe Blow to decide if information should be classified is a really bad idea. If he guesses wrong then the information is still out there.
    I'm curious, is there absolutely no crime you think would warrant whistleblowing? No matter what 100% loyalty to the government and no exceptions? If they're killing kids in dark rooms, nope, keep your mouth shut?

    It's important to make the distinction between "No one should ever whistleblow for any reason" and "I simply don't think his reason was good enough", so which is it for you?
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    I find it funny how many people think NSA is "breaking the law", yet the majority of those FISA federal judges disagree. To some random people on the internet with no law experience or education, it's clear it's illegal, yet to professionals it's not. Hmm, I wonder which carries more weight.
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    AMENDMENT IV

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


    If the NSA is doing 1% of the stuff Snowden has exposed, the government is blatantly in violation of the Fourth Amendment. If they aren't doing what Snowden has accused them of, then he is guilty of libel and not exposing classified material.

    The problem is, it's very hard to take the Federal Government to court (which is presided over by the Federal Government).
    Just because you claim its violates the 4th amendment doesn't mean that it actually does.

    Smith v Maryland (1979)

    This Court consistently has held that a person has no legitimate expectation of privacy in information he voluntarily turns over to third parties
    ACLU v Clapper (2013) found in favor of the government based on Smith v Maryland. The ACLU has appealed but unless the appeals court overturns it I don't think the SCOTUS will hear it.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Crovax View Post
    Just because you claim its violates the 4th amendment doesn't mean that it actually does.

    Smith v Maryland (1979)



    ACLU v Clapper (2013) found in favor of the government based on Smith v Maryland. The ACLU has appealed but unless the appeals court overturns it I don't think the SCOTUS will hear it.
    How is a private conversation or a private email between two citizens suddenly exempt from the 4th? When you pick up a phone to call a friend, all of your data is going through a third party, so do you support the government eavesdropping on any and all communication of every kind?

    It's also important to note that Smith v Maryland involved simply keeping a record of phone numbers called, not actual recording of conversations and emails.
    Quote Originally Posted by LowDown View Post
    I've got to say that it is shadenfreudalicious to see the rich and famous fucquewads on the coast suffering from the fires.

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