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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I was being sardonic, it's quite easy to read.
    Wasn't notable, sorry.


    That tells us almost nothing. It doesn't say whether warrants were issued or not. It doesn't say whether metadata was stored or content was analyzed. You're just reading it the way you want to.
    Sure it does, it talks about the secret court and permissions, (note the lack of word "warrant") among other things.

    Government Takes A U-Turn On Warrantless Wiretaps : NPR


    Errr...no. The bottom line is that you and I disagree on what spying is. Me, with vast experience in it; you, with...
    oh, my bad, I forgot, Mr. Bond, that you are a super secret agent squirrel..


    homey, I've held clearances you haven't heard about. lol In reality, if you were all that, you would know enough discussingt ones "Vast experience" with it "spying, would be cnsidered taboo, especially if you are still involved.


    There's no straw man about it. You acted like the two are unrelated and at odds, not me.

    Then, sir, quote me, where I stated such an opinion.


    One word was misspelled. If you couldn't easily overcome that, I dunno what to tell you.

    If this is how you wish to represent yourself, I will not stand in your way. bad quotes screw with the flow and creates work for the other, a typo, is simply a typo. I think you know that.


    I'm fine, just poking fun at you. On the other hand, it appears that metadata storage and intelligence collection has you very mad. That's okay, it's not your responsibility, let the professionals handle it.

    indeed, spying on my fellow americans by my government is something I am quite irate about. I didn't shed blood for my country so it would turn around and spy on us.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well you aren't going to get me to say too many nice things about the TSA, but the idea that that counts as collection simply isn't tenable. You seem to be simply listing everyone involved in the IC and claiming that they are spy agencies, and then conflating them with collection against US Persons.



    Is facial recognition fundamentally different when it is performed by software than by a person, in a manner that makes it collection? I mean, if we think Abu McJihad is going to be wearing a suicide vest at the Cowboys game (no idea why he would target the Cowboys), isn't it smarter to have something that can rapidly scan a crowd with greater precision than a couple of dozen FBI guys out there walking around with a picture, hoping to randomly run into the guy?



    The check/balance should be the inclusion and requirement for approval by multiple branches of government. If that does not happen, I agree, we have lost the C&B and need to restore it post haste. If it does, however, then we've fulfilled that Constitutional requirement.

    It is also worth noting that it is content is subject to 4th Amendment protections (that's why we keep pointing that out) - not metadata. That is why, for example, the Post Office is allowed to require you to put a return address and "to" address on your letter, but isn't allowed to just read your mail.



    This is what I'm pointing out:

    NSA's Verizon Spying Order Specifically Targeted Americans, Not Foreigners - Forbes

    "“It is hereby ordered that [Verizon Business Network Services'] Custodian of Records shall produce to the National Security Agency…all call detail records or ‘telephony metadata’ created by Verizon for communications (i) between the United States and abroad; or (ii) wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls,” the Guardian’s copy of the order reads. “This Order does not require Verizon to include telephony metadata for communications wholly originating and terminating in foreign countries.”"

    This is intended to sound ominous, when it's not. Foreign collection is already covered under Title 50. Nor (again) does collection of metadata risk violating 4th Amendment protections.



    those who abused lost their clearances, their jobs, and careers. That's pretty fair for someone who basically googled his girlfriend on a classified database.



    Ah. Are you into 9/11 trutherism now, as well? At least they have evidence, as opposed to complete dependence on simple conspiratorial distrust.



    Look. Don't trust the government. You shouldn't. You're an American - it's something we're not supposed to do. But you should have evidence before you accuse it of something, or you discredit any good you would want to do.





    Don't you follow The Onion? Twitter is just another collection program run by the NSA





    Yeah. With more citations like Putin's mouthpiece?

    if you want me to research the case, I will. But I'm not really sure what you think it proves.




    I'm confused. Are you saying that the three branches of government lack oversight? They have to be each others' oversight - that's the point of checks and balances.




    I didn't skip this. I'll get back to it. I gotta run brother!
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  3. #603
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Sure it does, it talks about the secret court and permissions
    Secret courts can issue warrants.

    oh, my bad, I forgot, Mr. Bond, that you are a super secret agent squirrel..

    homey, I've held clearances you haven't heard about. lol In reality, if you were all that, you would know enough discussingt ones "Vast experience" with it "spying, would be cnsidered taboo, especially if you are still involved.
    I could be Q for all it matters: the point is I have actual experience with this. So if we're quibbling over definitions...

    but lmao "taboo". People will limited experience always think it's a big deal. I drove to the tunnel in Kunia five days a week for over three years, I went to Iraq on NSA-cut orders; no one worth their salt that wanted to know wouldn't know that I worked at NSA. Trying to hide that would be a sure sign of someone who doesn't know how things work. I'm sure you had crazy, crazy clearances though!!! OOOOOOooooh I can only imagine!!!!

    Then, sir, quote me, where I stated such an opinion.
    Right here:

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    The point I have, is you combine all these things we are doing to American citizens in the name of "Safety" has more to do with surveiling.
    You said it like the two are unrelated. Like anyone could be safe on a patrol without surveilling the AO.

    If this is how you wish to represent yourself, I will not stand in your way. bad quotes screw with the flow and creates work for the other, a typo, is simply a typo. I think you know that.
    The typo was in the quote. Why you continue to wrap yourself around the axle on this gives the reader a hint as to why you choose to wrap yourself around the axle regarding metadata collection.





    indeed, spying on my fellow americans by my government is something I am quite irate about. I didn't shed blood for my country so it would turn around and spy on us.[/QUOTE]
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I didn't skip this. I'll get back to it. I gotta run brother!
    no problem man. I took a couple of days myself.

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Secret courts can issue warrants.



    I could be Q for all it matters: the point is I have actual experience with this. So if we're quibbling over definitions...

    but lmao "taboo". People will limited experience always think it's a big deal. I drove to the tunnel in Kunia five days a week for over three years, I went to Iraq on NSA-cut orders; no one worth their salt that wanted to know wouldn't know that I worked at NSA. Trying to hide that would be a sure sign of someone who doesn't know how things work. I'm sure you had crazy, crazy clearances though!!! OOOOOOooooh I can only imagine!!!!



    Right here:



    You said it like the two are unrelated. Like anyone could be safe on a patrol without surveilling the AO.



    The typo was in the quote. Why you continue to wrap yourself around the axle on this gives the reader a hint as to why you choose to wrap yourself around the axle regarding metadata collection.





    indeed, spying on my fellow americans by my government is something I am quite irate about. I didn't shed blood for my country so it would turn around and spy on us.
    [/QUOTE]






    *shrug* I see we are getting nowhere here super secret squirrel. It was wonderful talking to you.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    I wonder what crazy, unheard of clearances you could have while not even knowing that like a third of NSA is active duty military folks, and not some hotshot assignment.



    Anyway, yes, survelling an area and safety aren't unrelated. That you would imply they are looks to be near the root of your issue with this. Snowden didn't do you any favors, I assure you, no matter who stridently you might think he did.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    I wonder what crazy, unheard of clearances you could have while not even knowing that like a third of NSA is active duty military folks, and not some hotshot assignment.



    Anyway, yes, survelling an area and safety aren't unrelated. That you would imply they are looks to be near the root of your issue with this. Snowden didn't do you any favors, I assure you, no matter who stridently you might think he did.


    I guess if you are involved in the problem, rationalization is the only way to go, brother. *shrug*


    Like I said, you have yourself a wonderful day.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Well you aren't going to get me to say too many nice things about the TSA, but the idea that that counts as collection simply isn't tenable. You seem to be simply listing everyone involved in the IC and claiming that they are spy agencies, and then conflating them with collection against US Persons.
    I agree, that was a stretch, though the next time you are standing there with your arms out as they have a metal detector at your crotch, ask your self, "Is this the posture and stance of freedom"?

    Just irksome.

    Is facial recognition fundamentally different when it is performed by software than by a person, in a manner that makes it collection? I mean, if we think Abu McJihad is going to be wearing a suicide vest at the Cowboys game (no idea why he would target the Cowboys), isn't it smarter to have something that can rapidly scan a crowd with greater precision than a couple of dozen FBI guys out there walking around with a picture, hoping to randomly run into the guy?
    Are we sure that's all they are looking for?

    Call It Super Bowl Face Scan I

    I don't know, seems we hide behind "terrorism" to give the government more access and control of our lives.

    you are more likely to die on the way to a football game and be struck by lightning than being a victim of a terrorist attack. Does this mean we don't do prudent things like metal detectors on the way in? Of course not.

    But scanning EVERY face and comparing it to a police database? what are they doing with the scans that didn't match?


    The check/balance should be the inclusion and requirement for approval by multiple branches of government. If that does not happen, I agree, we have lost the C&B and need to restore it post haste. If it does, however, then we've fulfilled that Constitutional requirement.
    I agree here. though I do not like "Secret courts" and "Gag orders" of NSL letters...


    It is also worth noting that it is content is subject to 4th Amendment protections (that's why we keep pointing that out) - not metadata. That is why, for example, the Post Office is allowed to require you to put a return address and "to" address on your letter, but isn't allowed to just read your mail.
    Again, I can take "metadata" and put together a pretty good idea of anyones life with just that. plus if it's no big deal, why hide it? why gag orders?


    This is what I'm pointing out:

    NSA's Verizon Spying Order Specifically Targeted Americans, Not Foreigners - Forbes

    "“It is hereby ordered that [Verizon Business Network Services'] Custodian of Records shall produce to the National Security Agency…all call detail records or ‘telephony metadata’ created by Verizon for communications (i) between the United States and abroad; or (ii) wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls,” the Guardian’s copy of the order reads. “This Order does not require Verizon to include telephony metadata for communications wholly originating and terminating in foreign countries.”"

    This is intended to sound ominous, when it's not. Foreign collection is already covered under Title 50. Nor (again) does collection of metadata risk violating 4th Amendment protections.
    the bolded part is what I take exception to.


    Where is it enumerated in the constitution that our government should be collecting such data without warrants, with gag orders, on american to american communication?


    those who abused lost their clearances, their jobs, and careers. That's pretty fair for someone who basically googled his girlfriend on a classified database.
    Really? I think it goes deeper than this.


    Ah. Are you into 9/11 trutherism now, as well? At least they have evidence, as opposed to complete dependence on simple conspiratorial distrust.

    As one who lost relatives and friends in the 911 attacks including police and fire, I assure you sir, I am no 911 truther. Just a simple vigilant libertarian.


    Look. Don't trust the government. You shouldn't. You're an American - it's something we're not supposed to do. But you should have evidence before you accuse it of something, or you discredit any good you would want to do.

    Then why hide it? Why is the government hiding such collection, and what does such collection do for us, specifically in the "War on terror"?






    Don't you follow The Onion? Twitter is just another collection program run by the NSA

    Dude, that you have no argument against, we sit here and argue about warrantless this and that, all the while the sheeple are freely giving out every aspect of thier lives via facebook, twitter, and instagram. lol




    Yeah. With more citations like Putin's mouthpiece?

    if you want me to research the case, I will. But I'm not really sure what you think it proves.




    I'm confused. Are you saying that the three branches of government lack oversight? They have to be each others' oversight - that's the point of checks and balances.

    I think we are just confused on this whole point with each other.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I guess if you are involved in the problem, rationalization is the only way to go, brother. *shrug*


    Like I said, you have yourself a wonderful day.
    The irony of that is...significant.

    You seem to have an idea of freedom vs safety wherein absolute freedom is the goal. it's not. It never was and never should be. It's a balance between the two. Asking yourself if something is a "freedom stance" is no more useful than asking yourself if it's a "safety stance". Neither absolutes are optimal.
    Last edited by OldWorldOrder; 11-22-14 at 04:25 PM.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Posture and stance of submission--some people thrive on it.....

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