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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how do you think the founding fathers would have reacted to some one who leaked their secret documents? I am going to go out on a limb and suggest they would have not treated him well...
    I'll go out on a limb and suggest that they'd be very suspicious of an all seeing Big Brother collecting massive amounts of personal data on U.S. Citizens, and 'promising' cross their hearts to only use it to protect the new country from English terrists! Promise!

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Another thread about Snowden...nice to see a true American hero is doing okay.

    He seemed to have sacrificed his freedom and (apparent) happiness to help his fellow Americans. And yet he is vilified by many.
    Sadly, this speaks volumes about post-911 America. The land of the free and the brave has been partially replaced by the land of the cowardly sheep...terrified that every shadow houses a terrorist and blindly doing and thinking whatever the government says.


    I am quite sure that history will view Snowden as far better then many do today as those that have been brainwashed by the government/mass media will fall away/die off and this situation can be looked upon by people with greater clarity.
    Last edited by DA60; 08-13-14 at 10:22 PM.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I'll go out on a limb and suggest that they'd be very suspicious of an all seeing Big Brother collecting massive amounts of personal data on U.S. Citizens, and 'promising' cross their hearts to only use it to protect the new country from English terrists! Promise!
    That is one way to attempt to avoid the question. Not quite as honest as trying to actually answer it...
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Redress View Post
    That is one way to attempt to avoid the question. Not quite as honest as trying to actually answer it...
    OK, your question assumes two things (in order to relate it to the issues at hand):

    1) The early U.S. had a massive surveillance program that included bulk data collection on American citizens.

    2) Someone leaked the existence of that program.

    I reject the first assumption, and so don't think the question is worth answering. If your question is whether or not the Founders would have objected to leaking some other type of completely different, secret, information, sure, OK, yeah, they would have if those individuals thought it was important information, etc. So what?

    I just don't believe those who made a point of including the 4th Amendment in the Constitution would have made an exception for mass domestic data collection. If you do, that's fine, make that argument. An early example might be opening and copying all the mail, or at least making a notation of the sender and recipient of each piece of mail, and then storing all those records in Philly or somewhere, only to be looked at when there was a national security issue - say, fear of British spies or something! And I doubt in 1798 that a secret court that makes secret decisions, hidden from all but a few elected Congressman, to decide what data to collect, and when to use data collected, would have gone over too well.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    Patriotism isn't about obeying the law or loyalty to the government. It's about being loyal to the country and the ideals it was founded on. Arguably, Snowden showed that more than any other scumbag in the NSA. At least he didn't feel the need to boldface lie to the American public about the government's surveillance habits.
    Snowden wasn't loyal to this country, it's people, or the ideas it was founded on. he uses that as an excuse for the gullible, and does so because it is known that the gullible make up a sizeable enough portion of this country to hinder the Presidents' ability to engage in effective foreign policy.

    I will never cease to be amazed at how people are willing to look past the fact that he's an enabler of Putin, the guy who just cracked down on free speech again in Russia, in order to argue that Snowden of all people is some kind of crusader for liberty.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by DA60 View Post
    Another thread about Snowden...nice to see a true American hero is doing okay.

    He seemed to have sacrificed his freedom and (apparent) happiness to help his fellow Americans.
    He didn't help his fellow Americans and he may very likely have gotten some of them killed. He certainly has helped kill plenty of foreigners.

    "hero"

    And yet he is vilified by many.
    He's a traitor who serves the interests of dictators. He deserves vilification.

    I am quite sure that history will view Snowden as far better then many do today
    i am rather sure that history will view Snowden far more accurately than that.



    But hey, Snowden says he would be willing to do Jail Time to come back to America because He Just Loves It So Much.

    Anyone willing to bet me he is lying his ass off, and has no intention whatsoever of making good on that?

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Snowden wasn't loyal to this country, it's people, or the ideas it was founded on. he uses that as an excuse for the gullible, and does so because it is known that the gullible make up a sizeable enough portion of this country to hinder the Presidents' ability to engage in effective foreign policy.

    I will never cease to be amazed at how people are willing to look past the fact that he's an enabler of Putin, the guy who just cracked down on free speech again in Russia, in order to argue that Snowden of all people is some kind of crusader for liberty.
    Just so I'm clear, he flies to Russia, we strip his passport, ground planes we think might be carrying him OUT of Russia, he spends weeks in the airport working to get out of there and to a safe haven but we bully all our allies to make that impossible, and it's Snowden's fault he's stuck there in Putin's Russian, enabling him? Because the U.S. has done it's best to make it impossible for him to leave there?

    Who's being gullible here?

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Just so I'm clear, he flies to Russia, we strip his passport, ground planes we think might be carrying him OUT of Russia, he spends weeks in the airport working to get out of there and to a safe haven but we bully all our allies to make that impossible, and it's Snowden's fault he's stuck there in Putin's Russian, enabling him? Because the U.S. has done it's best to make it impossible for him to leave there?

    Who's being gullible here?
    Wrong. He flew to China, and then flew to Russia, carrying 4 laptops crammed full of US National Security in them in order to trade for passage, at which point he basically became Putins' Agent. Snowden chose to trade with and seek the embrace of the autocrats. He's welcome to fly back to the US any time he wants, and he doesn't, because he prefers it precisely where he is.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Well, some people consider the FISA courts to be meaningful restraints. Certainly legal restraint. I mean according to those federal judges, anyway. And near blanket coverage is simply not true, period. Unless you have a very liberal definition of "near".

    Do you wonder why, of the 40,000+ folks who work at NSA, the vast, vast majority of them have no problem with what it does? They who know much more of it than normal folks? Is it because they're all bad people? Dumb? Or could it be something else?
    With few exceptions, no one has a problem with that kind of power as long as it's in THEIR hands and not someone else's.

    Snowden happens to be one of the few exceptions.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    OK, your question assumes two things (in order to relate it to the issues at hand):

    1) The early U.S. had a massive surveillance program that included bulk data collection on American citizens.

    2) Someone leaked the existence of that program.

    I reject the first assumption, and so don't think the question is worth answering. If your question is whether or not the Founders would have objected to leaking some other type of completely different, secret, information, sure, OK, yeah, they would have if those individuals thought it was important information, etc. So what?

    I just don't believe those who made a point of including the 4th Amendment in the Constitution would have made an exception for mass domestic data collection. If you do, that's fine, make that argument. An early example might be opening and copying all the mail, or at least making a notation of the sender and recipient of each piece of mail, and then storing all those records in Philly or somewhere, only to be looked at when there was a national security issue - say, fear of British spies or something! And I doubt in 1798 that a secret court that makes secret decisions, hidden from all but a few elected Congressman, to decide what data to collect, and when to use data collected, would have gone over too well.
    No, my question does not require an massive surveillance program. It merely requires the existence of secret material.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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