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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    I have highlighted the actual collection agencies for you. In addition, it is worth noting, you are missing the NGA, although NGA and NSA both fall under DOD.

    The reason we have multiple collections agencies is multivariate. Firstly, at least three of them are based around their assigned discipline. The NSA has primary responsibility for SIGINT, the CIA has the primary responsibility for HUMINT, the NGA has the primary responsibility for IMINT and GEOINT. The FBI is a collections agency as well because they have the authority to operate domestically. So, for example, if in the course of conducing HUMINT operations against a target in (making this up) the country of Outlandia, the CIA runs across John Schmuckatelli, who is a US person who seems to be involved (for example) gun running back and forth between the US and Outlandia, the CIA would, upon the realization that Mr Schmuckatelli is a US person, cease collection against Mr Schmuckatelli and hand him off to the FBI, who would then own the investigation against him. It's worth noting that this serves within the IC as a sort of internal checks and balances - all of your capabilities and authorities are spread across multiple organizations rather than being housed under one roof - and those agencies, in the good manner of all government bureaucracies, jealously guard their turf. Even our DOD SIGINTers who are collecting in the field in actual combat zones technically have to listen to the NSA, because they "own" SIGINT. If you are a DOD Huminter and CIA wants to steal your source, too bad, so sad, you lose, because CIA "owns" HUMINT. I've never heard of NGA swooping in to try to control Geoint, but that is probably because NGA seems to be all retired DOD Geointers who are just enjoying life in a second career and like to be helpful. Asking "why so many agencies that spy", in a sense, is like asking "why have so many branches and levels of government"? Does it make us less free that Legislative and Executive power are (supposedly, at least) not housed in a single body?


    The DNI (Director of National Intelligence) is charged with overseeing the (often fractious, competitive, parochial) IC, and is an office that was created as part of the post-9/11 reforms when we realized that the intelligence to potentially ward off the attack was in front of us, we simply hadn't been organized to make use of it. NCTC (the National Counter Terrorism Center) is run by the CIA, and is a bunch of analysts, not collectors, who sit around and try to figure out A) what terrorist groups are doing B) what they are likely to do and C) opportunities where we might be able to stop them from doing so. They also help feed the no-fly list. Homeland Security (as near as I can tell) is a bunch of retired teachers and bureaucrats who are to ineffectual to assess their way out of a paper bag. They also don't have collection, but are dependent upon others for that.

    actually homeland security has engaged in survellience of americans, and one can argue that the TSA has engaged in searches via those body scanners as invasive.


    The point I have, is you combine all these things we are doing to American citizens in the name of "Safety" has more to do with surveiling. Facial recognition was tested at a football game I believe I read somewhere. how far do you want this government looking at you and me while claiming to be looking for abu mcjihad....



    Yes you have posted it. Why do you think?

    I am asking you, is a letter to verizon demaning a full data dump of all thier calls and a gag order in all regards to it,. constitutional? where is your check and balance?




    Yup.



    That is correct - the authorities for phone calls originating and terminating in foreign countries are already part of Title 50. However I find it entertaining that the headline says foreigners weren't collected against, and then the text says they were
    Are you not reading, this is for domestic. read it again my brother.


    However, you did not really respond. Are you now backing off the claim that we should "tear it all down"?
    Let me rephrase, I am known for bombastic grandiloquence, I think we should tear alot of it down. Much of it is redundant, and much of it does not have proper oversight. Abuses have been recorded and little repercussions have been meted out.





    Yes. You suggested that among the abuses of the NSA were the fact that it conducted offensive cyber operations. I pointed out to you that that was part of their reason for existence, similar to how the CIA has people who run spies, and pointed out that having the ability to run offensive cyber operations against (for example) China or al-Qa'ida was a good thing. Your response (post 549) to that was Again, on foreign folks they suspect of wanting to wage war or terrorism on us, great. randomly spying on Americans on american soil. Why?, which carries with it the implicit claim that the NSA is conducting offensive cyber operations against AMericans.

    I see what your are getting at... You want specific proof they are hacking and looking at American computers. I simply don't have the blind trust and faith in the federalis altruistic ideals of protecting you and me.

    50,000 CNE implants, including in the USA....

    Leaked slide shows NSA hackers secretly infected 50,000 computer networks with malware | Computerworld

    Sure. You can't prove a negative. By the same logic, we do not know if the air force is not bombing American cities and then covering it up in massive black-bag operations.

    We actually can be pretty sure of that. It's not on the twitter.










    1. the source )"The Intercept") seems pretty clearly slanted. The article on the side seems to be suggesting that AQSL aren't militants if we blow them up with a drone, which is counter to pretty much everything we know about that program. It looks like they are also the kind of people who blame victims of terrorism for the terrorism. I'm not going to waste much time, but I do wonder what I would get if I searched their archives for "Bush"+"9/11"+"Conspiracy" or some other similar boolean string. So, suffice to say, I look at their presentation with a bit of a jaundiced eye.

    2. I don't know the particulars of the case.

    The particulars are there and:

    NSA Spied On Five Politically Active American Citizens, The Intercept Reports
    In NSA-intercepted data, those not targeted far outnumber the foreigners who are - The Washington Post
    Greenwald: Snowden documents show not just Muslim-Americans are targeted by NSA ? RT USA

    I can keep going.




    ....that doesn't make sense. Unless you are arguing for a state/local aspect, there are only the three branches.

    know what you said, went beyond the three branches into areas that lack oversight.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  2. #582
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by EnigmaO01 View Post
    Have to wonder with all the hacking Russia and China are doing if they got any information out of Snowden. It's not like we would know.
    There are certainly ways to tell. But it's hard to do that without compromising that you know. And they're playing the same game.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    The point I have, is you combine all these things we are doing to American citizens in the name of "Safety" has more to do with surveiling.

    Safety is surveiling, is it not? You were in the military? I don't know what branch or your experience but I've been on more than a handful of patrols in several Iraqi provinces and having situational awareness is absolutely necessary if you want to consider yourself "safe". Having your head on a swivel is an absolute necessity, of course, but ideally you want a hell of a lot more than that. It's fine if you think things are "too far" or whatever, but don't act like "safety" and "situational awareness" are two very different concepts or anything. They're intrinsically linked.

    I simply don't have the blind trust and faith in the federalis altruistic ideals of protecting you and me.
    I don't have blind trust and faith in you, but I'm fairly certain you're not a mass murderer. Should I start posting about how you might be, maybe try to alert some authorities or something just because I don't have "blind trust and faith" in you? Is the bar so high (or low, depending on how you look at it) these days? "Oh, I don't have blind trust and faith in that guy/organization/whatever, so I'm gonna start talking about how they are/might be engaged in ______"?

    FYSA: The Intercept is basically the Snowden journal. It's the Greenwald construct that rages against the machine and got many of its first dozen stories (and more down the road, they seem to be rationing their stories to stay relevant and profitable) strictly from data he stole and made public. When the Intercept talks about the Western world in general or Western intelligence agencies in particular, it's basically like the Coca-Cola network reporting on how Pepsi tastes.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Safety is surveiling, is it not?

    Orwellian.


    You were in the military? I don't know what branch or your experience but I've been on more than a handful of patrols in several Iraqi provinces and having situational awareness is absolutely necessary if you want to consider yourself "safe". Having your head on a swivel is an absolute necessity, of course, but ideally you want a hell of a lot more than that. It's fine if you think things are "too far" or whatever, but don't act like "safety" and "situational awareness" are two very different concepts or anything. They're intrinsically linked.
    lol what? yes I served and I have the scars. you are confusing the issue, spying on Americans =/= combat "situational awareness" unless the one is overly paranoid about his fellow citizens. we live in a culture of fear, fear breeds submission, you can see these administrations using fear of terrorism to distract on several occasions, and these simple answers by the government satiate simple minds (talking about the hoi poloi here). keeping us in a shroud of false fear so that we accept these intrusions on the very liberties that you and I have fought for.





    I don't have blind trust and faith in you, but I'm fairly certain you're not a mass murderer. Should I start posting about how you might be, maybe try to alert some authorities or something just because I don't have "blind trust and faith" in you? Is the bar so high (or low, depending on how you look at it) these days? "Oh, I don't have blind trust and faith in that guy/organization/whatever, so I'm gonna start talking about how they are/might be engaged in ______"?

    FYSA: The Intercept is basically the Snowden journal. It's the Greenwald construct that rages against the machine and got many of its first dozen stories (and more down the road, they seem to be rationing their stories to stay relevant and profitable) strictly from data he stole and made public. When the Intercept talks about the Western world in general or Western intelligence agencies in particular, it's basically like the Coca-Cola network reporting on how Pepsi tastes.[/QUOTE]
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Orwellian.
    Being aware is Orwellian? Well, that certainly explains the ignorance of some Snowden supporters...

    lol what? yes I served and I have the scars. you are confusing the issue, spying on Americans =/= combat "situational awareness" unless the one is overly paranoid about his fellow citizens. we live in a culture of fear, fear breeds submission, you can see these administrations using fear of terrorism to distract on several occasions, and these simple answers by the government satiate simple minds (talking about the hoi poloi here). keeping us in a shroud of false fear so that we accept these intrusions on the very liberties that you and I have fought for.
    And yet NSA isn't spying on Americans, so that's a false comparison. I'm just shocked that you think knowledge and safety are two different things. One depends upon the other.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Being aware is Orwellian? Well, that certainly explains the ignorance of some Snowden supporters...

    If thats what you think I meant, I really can't help you.




    And yet NSA isn't spying on Americans, so that's a false comparison. I'm just shocked that you think knowledge and safety are two different things. One depends upon the other.

    if "one depends on the other" by definition they would be two separate things!

    You are creating a strawman. Can't help you with that.


    NSA has spied on Americans, I have shown this.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    If thats what you think I meant, I really can't help you.
    Seriously, how can you be safe without a knowledge of your surroundings?


    [Qiote]if "one depends on the other" by definition they would be two separate things!

    You are creating a strawman. Can't help you with that.


    NSA has spied on Americans, I have shown this.[/QUOTE]

    With warrants. I have shown you this.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    fix your quotes.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  9. #589
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Nah..
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  10. #590
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Nah..


    You expect others to fix your mess? I'm happy to reply, but I don't feel I should be doing your work for you. Thanks.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

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