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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    So the guy who proved that all your paranoid fears about government overreach were true needs locking up? How does that work?
    Don't work out, work in.

    Never eat anything that's served in a bucket.

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    I think locking someone up works pretty much the same everywhere, no? You close the door...you lock the door...
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Would that be like you talking about intelligence agencies and their activities? Hmmmm...



    Thanks for the civics lesson! I misspoke when I said circuit court! It still bears more than a mention that what you pretend is so cut-and-dried (when it's really just your opinion) has actually been completely disregarded by actual federal judges. We should probably get you on the phone with them, no? Tell them how Gonzo Rodeo from the internet says they're wrong and it's not a matter of opinion?



    Did I ever say otherwise? You're the one pretending there's only one objectively right constitutional, not I. I'm well aware there are federal judges that support both views. You're the one,however, that's insisting that your opinion is objective constitutionally right. That there is no possibility for any interpretation that you disagree with. By pointing out that there are federal judges that hold that same opinion, are you admitting that there are federal judges, experts in constitutional law, that disagree with your subjective interpretation? Or do you still refuse to?



    Whew! Good thing we're talking about metadata collection, huh? Sure dodged a bullet on that one!



    The irony of you going on and on about intelligence operations and NSA operations in particular in this thread is not lost on anyone, I'm sure.



    I never said it was only your opinion. I'm sure Henry David and Dave Fagan here agree with you, too! The Unabomber is also a proponent, I'm sure, among many other normal people. And that's fine if it's their interpretation. Everyone can have their opinion. I'm sure there's quite a few normal people on both sides of the debate. Insisting that their opinion is objectively right, though? lmao
    I'm sorry but I can't hold a serious debate with someone about the law when they are obviously ignorant about how case law is built and how our legal system operates.

    You are telling me I can't use the word "illegal" because some federal judges disagree with me, yet you can use the word "legal" despite federal judges disagreeing with you? You shift the goal posts to "it's not so cut and dry" when back on page 35 or whatever you were screaming the word "LEGAL" and berating everyone else who didn't. You despised my dismissal of current legal status as irrelevant to the greater argument (Constitutionality) and then straight up ignored my argument detailing why constitutionality can't even be tested under the current laws without some sort of whistleblower.

    I mean, seriously dude, of course my opinion of the constitutionality of said laws is my opinion. This is a debate site populated by laymen (and some professionals, but acting in the capacity as laymen, i.e. no arguments from authority here), where we all have opinions and that's the very thing we're talking about - our opinions. But how am I supposed to trust you to not just spike the debate football and further derail the thread for saying it's just my opinion , when you already:

    1) won't fairly address my arguments
    2) quote mine and ignore pertinent arguments I've kindly repeated several times
    3) outright ignore and dismiss several well crafted, lengthy posts
    4) mischaracterize what I am actually saying in favor of hyperbole, and
    5) claim your experience at the NSA gives you some sort of legal upper hand when you don't even know how the court system works.

    You have repeatedly demonstrated your unwillingness to understand and inability to engage another's arguments with anything but stubbornness and misplaced zeal. I mean, have you even taken so much an introductory Business Law class? I won't be bothered to teach you about our legal system, as I'm sure you wouldn't let me anyway. Good day.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    I'm sorry but I can't hold a serious debate with someone about the law when they are obviously ignorant about how case law is built and how our legal system operates.

    You are telling me I can't use the word "illegal" because some federal judges disagree with me, yet you can use the word "legal" despite federal judges disagreeing with you?
    What's the law right now?

    See, you have your interpretation, I have mine. You have some federal judges that agree with you, I have some, too. Only one of us has the actual current law of the land on their side. Kinda important.

    You shift the goal posts to "it's not so cut and dry" when back on page 35 or whatever you were screaming the word "LEGAL" and berating everyone else who didn't.
    Yeah, because it's currently legal. Again, somewhat important.

    Please, educate yourself on intelligence agencies and intelligence operations in a conversation about intelligence agencies and intelligence operations. You're woefully ignorant.

    Bonus points for, after all these pages of me telling you that your squealing about how it's not a matter of opinion regarding what's constitutional and what's not, you have now agreed that, yes, it's just your opinion. Fantastique.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Hacking a phone to search images is content. You would be better positioned to make the argument that he was unfairly accusing you of confusing the two if you didn't then suggest that they can be conflated.



    Well hells bells then, why stop there? Many police also abuse their authority - we should get rid of them right away! Think about how much safer we'll all be! Members of the armed forces have committed abuses while overseas - we should take away their guns when they go to war! Heck, the NSA falls under the DOD, and the DOD has tanks! Think about how much damage those could do if used against Americans!?! We should scrap the military! It's the only way we can make sure no one ever abuses it!



    .....Scrapping the US SIGINT capability is another way of saying "give a massive enabler to Russia, China, Iran, and every single major terrorist group that you can name offhand". SIGINT is a critical part of almost every aspect of US Foreign policy, but in particular OCO and CT. Doing it because there have been abuses that have been caught and punished is hair-on-fire over-reactionism. People (our people) will absolutely 100% guaranteed die if you do that. I'm not willing to bury any more friends because folks prefer feel-good solutions to the messy difficulty of self-government.

    Government power is absolutely dangerous. Like fire, a dangerous servant. That's why we have a Constitution and it's why we have Checks and Balances to ensure that the Constitution is followed. But you still have to have government power.
    No, fire is a USEFUL servant, but a cruel and dangerous master.

    And that's very much the point. Under the present system, "national security" is invoked falsely, and the NSA is very much the tail wagging the dog.

    It is pure unadulterated BS to claim that it simply MUST gather metadata. BS and in violation of the letter and spirit of the Fourth Amendment.

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    I'm sure those guys are glad to have a 9/11 truther who thinks Sandy Hook was staged on their side, Henry.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    No, fire is a USEFUL servant, but a cruel and dangerous master.
    On the contrary, fire is a dangerous servant AND a fearful master.

    It is pure unadulterated BS to claim that it simply MUST gather metadata. BS and in violation of the letter and spirit of the Fourth Amendment.
    No, it isn't a "must". It is a "smart to". We also do not have to have a Navy or (for that matter) a first-world economy. We do not have to self-govern. Presenting this as a Must is a strawman.

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Manc Skipper View Post
    So the guy who proved that all your paranoid fears about government overreach were true needs locking up? How does that work?
    1. I find it ironic that this comes from a Brit - your intelligence agencies operate much more at home, with less legal restriction and less transparency, than ours do.
    2. This guy isn't some crusader out there trying to save Americans from a particular program - he's an asset to hostile foreign entities who has mass-dumped massive amounts of data that have nothing whatsoever to do with the story with which he is most closely associated.

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    On the contrary, fire is a dangerous servant AND a fearful master.



    No, it isn't a "must". It is a "smart to". We also do not have to have a Navy or (for that matter) a first-world economy. We do not have to self-govern. Presenting this as a Must is a strawman.
    Far out, we agree that it is a strawman. But I'm not asserting "national security", the various executive agencies assert it all the time.

    For the record, it was first asserted in 345US1 in March of 1953 by the US in the case called US v. Reynolds.

    And it wasn't until the digital age that the assertion was shown to be a lie. WaPo, June 22, 2003.

    In lawsuit attempt after lawsuit attempt, the federal government claims "national security" would be violated if they had to defend the suit.

    NSA claims the same with this metadata stuff.

    I just finished James Risen's book "Pay Any Price". It's very well documented, the fraud and deception employed by the government.

    In your book, it seems, anything the government does, whether conforming to the law or breaking the law, is OK if it's "smart" to do it?

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Have to wonder with all the hacking Russia and China are doing if they got any information out of Snowden. It's not like we would know.

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