Page 57 of 63 FirstFirst ... 7475556575859 ... LastLast
Results 561 to 570 of 623

Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

  1. #561
    Sage


    Thoreau72's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Last Seen
    12-08-17 @ 09:10 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    20,267

    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Researchers find metadata reveals personal information | Stanford Daily






    So you are saying it's ok for the government sometimes to violate the USC? I am not following you here?
    As far as he's concerned, it's OK for the government to violate USC any old time it wants to. In his Old World Order, government is always right and righteous, the citizen always wrong and criminal.

  2. #562
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:19 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,081

    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Perhaps in your world, but not mine.
    At least as much as the others.

  3. #563
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:19 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,081

    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    You keep dismissing metadata as almost irrelevant. you also keep suggesting I don't know it's not content. What I do know, and again, we consult in areas of forensics, is that I can find out a scary amount about you through metadata if I had the access the NSA does.

    How the NSA Spies on Smartphones Including the BlackBerry - SPIEGEL ONLINE

    Including with iphone camera to hack.
    Hacking a phone to search images is content. You would be better positioned to make the argument that he was unfairly accusing you of confusing the two if you didn't then suggest that they can be conflated.

    red herring aside, yes I would tear it down. What you suggest is innocent, and lets just pretend it is today. won't be tomorrow. I don't trust the government and the power elite that we keep electing. you keep putting people who want power into power and allowing them such tools, you get answers such as no comment on droning americans, and denials of domestic spying programs.

    right there, they lied, they should not be trusted,. and it has been shown they are extra-constitutional in the information they collect on US citizens. you didn't even address my gag order point.

    something's gone terribly wrong.
    Well hells bells then, why stop there? Many police also abuse their authority - we should get rid of them right away! Think about how much safer we'll all be! Members of the armed forces have committed abuses while overseas - we should take away their guns when they go to war! Heck, the NSA falls under the DOD, and the DOD has tanks! Think about how much damage those could do if used against Americans!?! We should scrap the military! It's the only way we can make sure no one ever abuses it!



    .....Scrapping the US SIGINT capability is another way of saying "give a massive enabler to Russia, China, Iran, and every single major terrorist group that you can name offhand". SIGINT is a critical part of almost every aspect of US Foreign policy, but in particular OCO and CT. Doing it because there have been abuses that have been caught and punished is hair-on-fire over-reactionism. People (our people) will absolutely 100% guaranteed die if you do that. I'm not willing to bury any more friends because folks prefer feel-good solutions to the messy difficulty of self-government.

    Government power is absolutely dangerous. Like fire, a dangerous servant. That's why we have a Constitution and it's why we have Checks and Balances to ensure that the Constitution is followed. But you still have to have government power.
    Last edited by cpwill; 11-18-14 at 04:22 PM.

  4. #564
    ANTI**ANTIFA
    ReverendHellh0und's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Temple of Solomon
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:13 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    75,410

    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Hacking a phone to search images is content. You would be better positioned to make the argument that he was unfairly accusing you of confusing the two if you didn't then suggest that they can be conflated.
    I can see how that would cause confusion, yes.


    Well hells bells then, why stop there? Many police also abuse their authority - we should get rid of them right away! Think about how much safer we'll all be! Members of the armed forces have committed abuses while overseas - we should take away their guns when they go to war!
    Reductio ad absurdum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


    can you comment on the national security letters and the gag orders? I can't get anyone to...


    Scrapping the US SIGINT capability is another way of saying "give a massive enabler to Russia, China, Iran, and every single major terrorist group that you can name offhand". SIGINT is a critical part of almost every aspect of US Foreign policy. Doing it because there have been abuses that have been caught and punished is hair-on-fire over-reactionism. People (our people) will absolutely 100% guaranteed die if you do that. I'm not willing to bury any more friends because folks prefer feel-good solutions to the messy difficulty of self-government.
    I've never advocated such, my chief and only complaint and issue is what these organizations are doing towards american citizens sans warrant.

    Government power is absolutely dangerous. That's why we have a Constitution and it's why we have Checks and Balances to ensure that the Constitution is followed. But you still have to have government power.

    But if you have things like a national security letter complete with a gag order, you have no checks and balances.... there are so many examples where this breaks down and the constitution is disregarded.

    National security letter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  5. #565
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:19 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,081

    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I can see how that would cause confusion, yes.
    Fair nuff.

    the position you argued is absurd. Getting rid of an entire branch of our national security because of a few abuses that were caught and punished is hyperbolic foolishness, and is worthy of being ridiculed.

    Did you read the link, though?

    ...Reductio ad absurdum (Latin: "reduction to absurdity"; pl.: reductiones ad absurdum), also known as argumentum ad absurdum (Latin: argument to absurdity), is a common form of argument which seeks to demonstrate that a statement is true by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its denial,[1] or in turn to demonstrate that a statement is false by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its acceptance. First recognized and studied in classical Greek philosophy (the Latin term derives from the Greek "εις άτοπον απαγωγή" or eis atopon apagoge, "reduction to the impossible", for example in Aristotle's Prior Analytics),[1] this technique has been used throughout history in both formal mathematical and philosophical reasoning, as well as informal debate....

    can you comment on the national security letters and the gag orders? I can't get anyone to...
    what did you want to ask about them? Do you think that we should alert subjects of CT investigations that we are collecting against them? Hey Mr AbuMcJihad, we noticed you are purchasing a lot of fertilizer, nails, kerosene, and maps of the New York subway system. Just to let you know, we're going to be watching everything you do on your cellphone from now on, but not your laptop, so if you could please do any terror op planning on your cellphone only from now on, that'd be great, thanks!!!

    ?

    I've never advocated such,
    It kinda looked like you just said to tear it down.

    like, right here:

    Quote Originally Posted by the good reverend
    Quote Originally Posted by oldworldorder
    People get in trouble for that kinda stuff if it's found to be purposeful. If it's not, it's just erased and like three people ever see it (who then have to file a **** ton of paperwork, sign NDAs, etc). Like what else would you suggest? Tear down the whole infrastructure because mistakes are made from time to time?
    red herring aside, yes I would tear it down.

    my chief and only complaint and issue is what these organizations are doing towards american citizens sans warrant.
    And as has been pointed out to you, you are working with an inaccurate picture of what they "do to Americans without a warrant". Are you willing to back up the earlier suggestion that the NSA is conducting offensive cyber operations against random Americans?

    But if you have things like a national security letter complete with a gag order, you have no checks and balances.... there are so many examples where this breaks down and the constitution is disregarded.
    If you don't have one branch or one level of government conducting oversight of the other, then I agree, checks and balances have broken down.
    Last edited by cpwill; 11-18-14 at 04:40 PM.

  6. #566
    ANTI**ANTIFA
    ReverendHellh0und's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Temple of Solomon
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:13 PM
    Gender
    Lean
    Libertarian
    Posts
    75,410

    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Fair nuff.



    the position you argued is absurd. Getting rid of an entire branch of our national security because of a few abuses that were caught and punished is hyperbolic foolishness, and is worthy of being ridiculed.

    Did you read the link, though?

    ...Reductio ad absurdum (Latin: "reduction to absurdity"; pl.: reductiones ad absurdum), also known as argumentum ad absurdum (Latin: argument to absurdity), is a common form of argument which seeks to demonstrate that a statement is true by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its denial,[1] or in turn to demonstrate that a statement is false by showing that a false, untenable, or absurd result follows from its acceptance. First recognized and studied in classical Greek philosophy (the Latin term derives from the Greek "εις άτοπον απαγωγή" or eis atopon apagoge, "reduction to the impossible", for example in Aristotle's Prior Analytics),[1] this technique has been used throughout history in both formal mathematical and philosophical reasoning, as well as informal debate....

    US Agencies that engage in spying

    NSA
    Homeland Security
    FBI
    Secret service
    DNI
    CIA
    NCTC
    Fusion centers


    Why so many agencies that spy?




    what did you want to ask about them? Do you think that we should alert subjects of CT investigations that we are collecting against them? Hey Mr AbuMcJihad, we noticed you are purchasing a lot of fertilizer, nails, kerosene, and maps of the New York subway system. Just to let you know, we're going to be watching everything you do on your cellphone from now on, but not your laptop, so if you could please do any terror op planning on your cellphone only from now on, that'd be great, thanks!!!

    Why are you still talking about islamicists do you even know what a security letter is?


    National Security Letters (NSLs) are an extraordinary search procedure which gives the FBI the power to compel the disclosure of customer records held by banks, telephone companies, Internet Service Providers, and others. These entities are prohibited, or "gagged," from telling anyone about their receipt of the NSL, which makes oversight difficult. The Number of NSLs issued has grown dramatically since the Patriot Act expanded the FBI's authority to issue them.

    https://www.epic.org/privacy/nsl/



    It kinda looked like you just said to tear it down.

    like, right here:



    And as has been pointed out to you, you are working with an inaccurate picture of what they "do to Americans without a warrant". Are you willing to back up the earlier suggestion that the NSA is conducting offensive cyber operations against random Americans?


    NSA's Verizon Spying Order Specifically Targeted Americans, Not Foreigners - Forbes

    "“It is hereby ordered that [Verizon Business Network Services'] Custodian of Records shall produce to the National Security Agency…all call detail records or ‘telephony metadata’ created by Verizon for communications (i) between the United States and abroad; or (ii) wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls,” the Guardian’s copy of the order reads. “This Order does not require Verizon to include telephony metadata for communications wholly originating and terminating in foreign countries.”"

    Did I claim cyber operations against random Americans? We simply do not know.... though seems 5 got hit:

    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...-surveillance/




    Granted they have islamic names but read deeper, it's patently absurd to think they were involved in anything.


    If you don't have one branch or one level of government conducting oversight of the other, then I agree, checks and balances have broken down.

    This goes beyond the three branches.
    Let evil swiftly befall those who have wrongly condemned us

  7. #567
    Sage
    OldWorldOrder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Last Seen
    10-12-15 @ 12:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    5,820

    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    [QUOTE=Gonzo Rodeo;1063992282]
    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post

    Oh, you say? Yeah... neither of those cases you linked are appeals.
    Who said anything about appeals? Is it federal judges with more education in constitutional law than either of us, agreeing with NSA and disagreeing with you? Okay then.

    It's also not just my opinion that it is illegal, now that certain truths have been exposed to sunlight.
    No, it's still just an opinion. That you can't wrap your mind around that is...incredible.

    I linked a District case decided December 16, 2013 (Klayman v. Obama). Your New York Times link above (ACLU v. Clapper) is a parallel District case decided two weeks later over almost the very same thing (slight differences in how it was being argued). Your Reuters link (EFF v. DOJ) was a District case covering the secret orders issued to the phone companies (which, as it turns out, did force the government to explain some shadier aspects of the PATRIOT Act and how it is involved). The appeal for Klayman v. Obama hit the Circuit on the 4th, so we'll see in a little while what two Reagan appointees and a W appointee say in appeal. Then either way, it's a year or three before the USSC either hears it or officially declines.
    Oooooh, I see! What I cited doesn't count because you think it might get overturned. That's...interesting, to say the least, but it also doesn't matter, because we're talking about the here and now.

    In all of the cases against the NSA and the federal government in the last 15 years, ALL of them have revolved around the government claiming "state's secrets" privilege while simultaneously seeking dismissal on the grounds that the contesting parties cannot prove they were the targets of surveillance, let alone illegal surveillance. That's a neat trick, isn't it? "We don't have to tell you anything we've done wrong, and you can't prove we did anything wrong (because we don't have to tell you what we actually did)".
    Yeah, that trick is called "national security". You don't need to care about it; other people do.

    The fact that such a construct was built into the PATRIOT Act (and even to some extent in 1978 with FISA) should give you pause. It's basically a blank check entitling the US Government to ignore anyone's First and Fourth Amendment rights, totally in secret, without oversight or chance for redress, for reasons they don't even have to share.
    Coolio.



    So now we're back to you just disagreeing with the law and saying in your opinion it's unconstitutional? Great.

    You do not have to be a constitutional scholar to know that is not constitutional. What should pique your curiosity further is the fact that real dents in these abrogations of constitutional protections have only been made possible by whistleblowers. Snowden, for example, leaked the secret order for Verizon to divulge it's data, which gave private citizens the proof that they had been the subjects of an illegal search/seizure.
    Except, unfortunately, that's not what the discussion is about. We get that you don't like it. We. Just. Don't. Care. Verizon can share that metadata if they feel like it. It's theirs! What don't you understand about this?

    If it's harmful to intelligence collection against US citizens without specific cause or warrant... good. That list above makes a very excellent case for people actively fighting a very existent Big Brother. This stuff used to be the domain of tin-foil hat wearing truthers that made blog posts while hiding from black helicopters. As it turns out... it's all true!
    Good god. No. I'm stopping you there.

    Hellshound, cpwill has already done a great job breaking it down, but I'm going to atomize it even more. There's different things at play:

    1- Storage of US persons metadata
    2- Actually looking at that metadata
    3- Collection, analysis, and production of content
    4- Offensive cyber operations on US persons
    5- Anything on foreign persons

    1 already has a blanket warrant and basically everyone who's anyone is fine with that, they get it. 2, 3, and 4 can't be done without a warrant. You might not know there's a warrant against you, but that's beside the point. 5, of course, is whatever. I feel like you've consistently in this thread showed examples of 2, 3, and 4 being done- legally- and conflated it with 1 being done on a national level. And the Der Speigel article you linked, of course, has to do mostly with 5.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

  8. #568
    Sage
    cpwill's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    USofA
    Last Seen
    Today @ 10:19 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Conservative
    Posts
    57,081

    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    US Agencies that engage in spying

    NSA
    Homeland Security
    FBI
    Secret service
    DNI
    CIA
    NCTC
    Fusion centers

    Why so many agencies that spy?
    I have highlighted the actual collection agencies for you. In addition, it is worth noting, you are missing the NGA, although NGA and NSA both fall under DOD.

    The reason we have multiple collections agencies is multivariate. Firstly, at least three of them are based around their assigned discipline. The NSA has primary responsibility for SIGINT, the CIA has the primary responsibility for HUMINT, the NGA has the primary responsibility for IMINT and GEOINT. The FBI is a collections agency as well because they have the authority to operate domestically. So, for example, if in the course of conducing HUMINT operations against a target in (making this up) the country of Outlandia, the CIA runs across John Schmuckatelli, who is a US person who seems to be involved (for example) gun running back and forth between the US and Outlandia, the CIA would, upon the realization that Mr Schmuckatelli is a US person, cease collection against Mr Schmuckatelli and hand him off to the FBI, who would then own the investigation against him. It's worth noting that this serves within the IC as a sort of internal checks and balances - all of your capabilities and authorities are spread across multiple organizations rather than being housed under one roof - and those agencies, in the good manner of all government bureaucracies, jealously guard their turf. Even our DOD SIGINTers who are collecting in the field in actual combat zones technically have to listen to the NSA, because they "own" SIGINT. If you are a DOD Huminter and CIA wants to steal your source, too bad, so sad, you lose, because CIA "owns" HUMINT. I've never heard of NGA swooping in to try to control Geoint, but that is probably because NGA seems to be all retired DOD Geointers who are just enjoying life in a second career and like to be helpful. Asking "why so many agencies that spy", in a sense, is like asking "why have so many branches and levels of government"? Does it make us less free that Legislative and Executive power are (supposedly, at least) not housed in a single body?


    The DNI (Director of National Intelligence) is charged with overseeing the (often fractious, competitive, parochial) IC, and is an office that was created as part of the post-9/11 reforms when we realized that the intelligence to potentially ward off the attack was in front of us, we simply hadn't been organized to make use of it. NCTC (the National Counter Terrorism Center) is run by the CIA, and is a bunch of analysts, not collectors, who sit around and try to figure out A) what terrorist groups are doing B) what they are likely to do and C) opportunities where we might be able to stop them from doing so. They also help feed the no-fly list. Homeland Security (as near as I can tell) is a bunch of retired teachers and bureaucrats who are to ineffectual to assess their way out of a paper bag. They also don't have collection, but are dependent upon others for that.

    Why are you still talking about islamicists do you even know what a security letter is?
    Yes you have posted it. Why do you think?

    National Security Letters (NSLs) are an extraordinary search procedure which gives the FBI the power to compel the disclosure of customer records held by banks, telephone companies, Internet Service Providers, and others. These entities are prohibited, or "gagged," from telling anyone about their receipt of the NSL, which makes oversight difficult. The Number of NSLs issued has grown dramatically since the Patriot Act expanded the FBI's authority to issue them.
    Yup.

    NSA's Verizon Spying Order Specifically Targeted Americans, Not Foreigners - Forbes

    "“It is hereby ordered that [Verizon Business Network Services'] Custodian of Records shall produce to the National Security Agency…all call detail records or ‘telephony metadata’ created by Verizon for communications (i) between the United States and abroad; or (ii) wholly within the United States, including local telephone calls,” the Guardian’s copy of the order reads. “This Order does not require Verizon to include telephony metadata for communications wholly originating and terminating in foreign countries.”"
    That is correct - the authorities for phone calls originating and terminating in foreign countries are already part of Title 50. However I find it entertaining that the headline says foreigners weren't collected against, and then the text says they were

    However, you did not really respond. Are you now backing off the claim that we should "tear it all down"?

    Did I claim cyber operations against random Americans?
    Yes. You suggested that among the abuses of the NSA were the fact that it conducted offensive cyber operations. I pointed out to you that that was part of their reason for existence, similar to how the CIA has people who run spies, and pointed out that having the ability to run offensive cyber operations against (for example) China or al-Qa'ida was a good thing. Your response (post 549) to that was Again, on foreign folks they suspect of wanting to wage war or terrorism on us, great. randomly spying on Americans on american soil. Why?, which carries with it the implicit claim that the NSA is conducting offensive cyber operations against AMericans.

    We simply do not know....
    Sure. You can't prove a negative. By the same logic, we do not know if the air force is not bombing American cities and then covering it up in massive black-bag operations.

    though seems 5 got hit:
    https://firstlook.org/theintercept/2...-surveillance/
    Granted they have islamic names but read deeper, it's patently absurd to think they were involved in anything.


    1. the source )"The Intercept") seems pretty clearly slanted. The article on the side seems to be suggesting that AQSL aren't militants if we blow them up with a drone, which is counter to pretty much everything we know about that program. It looks like they are also the kind of people who blame victims of terrorism for the terrorism. I'm not going to waste much time, but I do wonder what I would get if I searched their archives for "Bush"+"9/11"+"Conspiracy" or some other similar boolean string. So, suffice to say, I look at their presentation with a bit of a jaundiced eye.

    2. I don't know the particulars of the case.

    This goes beyond the three branches.
    ....that doesn't make sense. Unless you are arguing for a state/local aspect, there are only the three branches.

  9. #569
    better late than pregnant
    Gonzo Rodeo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Here
    Last Seen
    Today @ 12:03 PM
    Lean
    Private
    Posts
    4,131

    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    You are obviously out of your depth here. I'll elucidate a few points and then make my exit. It will be obvious to any other reader why you are not worth debating after this.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Who said anything about appeals? Is it federal judges with more education in constitutional law than either of us, agreeing with NSA and disagreeing with you? Okay then.
    You did.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    And I don't know...hmm...I wonder if there's been any circuit court rulings...hmmm......
    District Court is trial court.
    Circuit Court is appellate court.
    Supreme Court is a superior appellate court.
    All three courts exist at both the State and Federal level. Decisions in Federal District Courts are handed down by Federal Judges.

    I'm not actually that surprised you didn't know that.

    No, it's still just an opinion. That you can't wrap your mind around that is...incredible.
    Definitions are not opinions. And there are federal judges that happen to hold the same opinions, which is neat how certain activities that have come to light can now actually be judged upon. Again, previous cases (and there is a ****load of case law out there from the last 15 years... people really don't like being spied upon) hinged on the government claiming they don't have to show their cards, and dismissing plaintiffs' claims of spying because they can't point to any specific instances of it (because the government is allowed to hide it). That is the equivalent of a cop beating up an innocent person, and that person can't bring a case because the cop is protected from testifying as to why he thought he had grounds to start the beating in the first place; the innocent person can't by law bring a case because the law won't let them prove it. "Legal by default" is not actually legal in any sense of the word.

    Oooooh, I see! What I cited doesn't count because you think it might get overturned. That's...interesting, to say the least, but it also doesn't matter, because we're talking about the here and now.
    Dude....again, I'm not surprised you don't know what you're talking about here.

    The appeal I was talking about is the one that the DC Circuit just heard arguments for on the 4th. We'll know soon what that Court has to say. FYI, this appeal is from the US government... the District ruling in question was the case I linked to (Klayman v. Obama), which says the government is doing something illegal. Both of the other cases you linked to are up for appeal as well, but have not heard arguments yet to my knowledge.


    So now we're back to you just disagreeing with the law and saying in your opinion it's unconstitutional? Great.
    It's not just my opinion!

    Don't worry, you'll get there eventually.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

  10. #570
    Sage
    OldWorldOrder's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Last Seen
    10-12-15 @ 12:13 AM
    Gender
    Lean
    Independent
    Posts
    5,820

    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    You are obviously out of your depth here. I'll elucidate a few points and then make my exit. It will be obvious to any other reader why you are not worth debating after this.
    Would that be like you talking about intelligence agencies and their activities? Hmmmm...

    You did.



    District Court is trial court.
    Circuit Court is appellate court.
    Supreme Court is a superior appellate court.
    All three courts exist at both the State and Federal level. Decisions in Federal District Courts are handed down by Federal Judges.

    I'm not actually that surprised you didn't know that.
    Thanks for the civics lesson! I misspoke when I said circuit court! It still bears more than a mention that what you pretend is so cut-and-dried (when it's really just your opinion) has actually been completely disregarded by actual federal judges. We should probably get you on the phone with them, no? Tell them how Gonzo Rodeo from the internet says they're wrong and it's not a matter of opinion?

    Definitions are not opinions. And there are federal judges that happen to hold the same opinions
    Did I ever say otherwise? You're the one pretending there's only one objectively right constitutional, not I. I'm well aware there are federal judges that support both views. You're the one,however, that's insisting that your opinion is objective constitutionally right. That there is no possibility for any interpretation that you disagree with. By pointing out that there are federal judges that hold that same opinion, are you admitting that there are federal judges, experts in constitutional law, that disagree with your subjective interpretation? Or do you still refuse to?

    which is neat how certain activities that have come to light can now actually be judged upon. Again, previous cases (and there is a ****load of case law out there from the last 15 years... people really don't like being spied upon)
    Whew! Good thing we're talking about metadata collection, huh? Sure dodged a bullet on that one!

    Dude....again, I'm not surprised you don't know what you're talking about here.
    The irony of you going on and on about intelligence operations and NSA operations in particular in this thread is not lost on anyone, I'm sure.

    TIt's not just my opinion!

    Don't worry, you'll get there eventually.
    I never said it was only your opinion. I'm sure Henry David and Dave Fagan here agree with you, too! The Unabomber is also a proponent, I'm sure, among many other normal people. And that's fine if it's their interpretation. Everyone can have their opinion. I'm sure there's quite a few normal people on both sides of the debate. Insisting that their opinion is objectively right, though? lmao
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

Page 57 of 63 FirstFirst ... 7475556575859 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •