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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    I would assume it's a special assignment and not all are qualified?
    Absolutely not. You can come out of initial entry training and go straight to 715th MI BDE on Schofield Barracks and go straight to the Roach (Rochefort Building). Same with 513th at Gordon or whatever. There are thousands of lower enlisted of all services working in NSA facilities right now. My last deployment (Anbar) wasn't even for the Army, it was specifically for NSA- it's right there on my very unclassified NCOER, sitting in my personal office at home. So the point of this is, yes, I have extensive experience with this topic. And it is mind boggling not just what people who don't know any better believe, but more what they want to believe. Like at some point, on some level, they want to believe they're being super secretly spied upon and I just don't get it.

    WHAT????? Neither MARINA nor MAINWAY have any such warrant requirement and are extra-constitutional.
    They do if they're targeting US persons. For normal use, no they don't need much of anything, but normal use doesn't include US persons.

    On American computers d00d.
    Without a warrant? That's just not true, man.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Absolutely not. You can come out of initial entry training and go straight to 715th MI BDE on Schofield Barracks and go straight to the Roach (Rochefort Building). Same with 513th at Gordon or whatever. There are thousands of lower enlisted of all services working in NSA facilities right now. My last deployment (Anbar) wasn't even for the Army, it was specifically for NSA- it's right there on my very unclassified NCOER, sitting in my personal office at home. So the point of this is, yes, I have extensive experience with this topic. And it is mind boggling not just what people who don't know any better believe, but more what they want to believe. Like at some point, on some level, they want to believe they're being super secretly spied upon and I just don't get it.

    Interesting to know that we have such a need for this that the NSA has entry level types...


    and as for "boggling the mind" brother...







    They do if they're targeting US persons. For normal use, no they don't need much of anything, but normal use doesn't include US persons.



    Without a warrant? That's just not true, man.

    NSA stores metadata of millions of web users for up to a year, secret files show | US news | The Guardian


    "Marina aggregates NSA metadata from an array of sources, some targeted, others on a large scale. Programs such as Prism – which operates through legally compelled "partnerships" with major internet companies – allow the NSA to obtain content and metadata on thousands of targets without individual warrants."



    And being "in the know" you must be aware of so called "incidental collection" wink wink....

    NSA searched Americans


    tell me about FAIRVIEW....
    You should try to remember, ideas are conveyed by researching information, vetting sources, and confirming said information. Not by regurgitating talking points given to you by your "news" station.
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    Interesting to know that we have such a need for this that the NSA has entry level types...
    Yeah, it's almost like virtually everything is online these days, and people typically own several devices which they use to communicate with the world.

    and as for "boggling the mind" brother...

    NSA stores metadata of millions of web users for up to a year, secret files show | US news | The Guardian


    "Marina aggregates NSA metadata from an array of sources, some targeted, others on a large scale. Programs such as Prism – which operates through legally compelled "partnerships" with major internet companies – allow the NSA to obtain content and metadata on thousands of targets without individual warrants."
    Again, the metadata, not the content. And it stores it, doesn't process it. This is what we already talked about.

    And being "in the know" you must be aware of so called "incidental collection" wink wink....

    NSA searched Americans


    tell me about FAIRVIEW....
    Yeah? I'm sure people use guns illegally sometimes, too. What should we do about it?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Yeah, it's almost like virtually everything is online these days, and people typically own several devices which they use to communicate with the world.


    Again, the metadata, not the content. And it stores it, doesn't process it. This is what we already talked about.
    Researchers find metadata reveals personal information | Stanford Daily



    Yeah? I'm sure people use guns illegally sometimes, too. What should we do about it?

    So you are saying it's ok for the government sometimes to violate the USC? I am not following you here?
    You should try to remember, ideas are conveyed by researching information, vetting sources, and confirming said information. Not by regurgitating talking points given to you by your "news" station.
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    That's fine, but it's still that metadata, not content, and it's still only stored and not processed (which, if you're unfamiliar with the difference, basically means it's not even looked at, let alone disseminated to analysts for production into any sort of "product" at all). Like that article is obviously right: traffic analysis is what SIGINTers have done since World War II. But no one is looking at that data, period, without a warrant.

    So you are saying it's ok for the government sometimes to violate the USC? I am not following you here?
    People get in trouble for that kinda stuff if it's found to be purposeful. If it's not, it's just erased and like three people ever see it (who then have to file a **** ton of paperwork, sign NDAs, etc). Like what else would you suggest? Tear down the whole infrastructure because mistakes are made from time to time? Hence my gun comment. Sometimes guns are used illegally, would you propose we ban them or something?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    That's fine, but it's still that metadata, not content, and it's still only stored and not processed (which, if you're unfamiliar with the difference, basically means it's not even looked at, let alone disseminated to analysts for production into any sort of "product" at all). Like that article is obviously right: traffic analysis is what SIGINTers have done since World War II. But no one is looking at that data, period, without a warrant.

    You keep dismissing metadata as almost irrelevant. you also keep suggesting I don't know it's not content. What I do know, and again, we consult in areas of forensics, is that I can find out a scary amount about you through metadata if I had the access the NSA does.

    How the NSA Spies on Smartphones Including the BlackBerry - SPIEGEL ONLINE

    Including with iphone camera to hack.




    People get in trouble for that kinda stuff if it's found to be purposeful. If it's not, it's just erased and like three people ever see it (who then have to file a **** ton of paperwork, sign NDAs, etc). Like what else would you suggest? Tear down the whole infrastructure because mistakes are made from time to time? Hence my gun comment. Sometimes guns are used illegally, would you propose we ban them or something?

    red herring aside, yes I would tear it down. What you suggest is innocent, and lets just pretend it is today. won't be tomorrow. I don't trust the government and the power elite that we keep electing. you keep putting people who want power into power and allowing them such tools, you get answers such as no comment on droning americans, and denials of domestic spying programs.

    right there, they lied, they should not be trusted,. and it has been shown they are extra-constitutional in the information they collect on US citizens. you didn't even address my gag order point.

    something's gone terribly wrong.
    You should try to remember, ideas are conveyed by researching information, vetting sources, and confirming said information. Not by regurgitating talking points given to you by your "news" station.
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by ReverendHellh0und View Post
    You keep dismissing metadata as almost irrelevant. you also keep suggesting I don't know it's not content. What I do know, and again, we consult in areas of forensics, is that I can find out a scary amount about you through metadata if I had the access the NSA does.

    How the NSA Spies on Smartphones Including the BlackBerry - SPIEGEL ONLINE

    Including with iphone camera to hack.







    red herring aside, yes I would tear it down. What you suggest is innocent, and lets just pretend it is today. won't be tomorrow. I don't trust the government and the power elite that we keep electing. you keep putting people who want power into power and allowing them such tools, you get answers such as no comment on droning americans, and denials of domestic spying programs.

    right there, they lied, they should not be trusted,. and it has been shown they are extra-constitutional in the information they collect on US citizens. you didn't even address my gag order point.

    something's gone terribly wrong.
    NSA doesn't have any access to it without a warrant, that's what I keep telling you. You're conflating storage with access.

    As far as tearing it down...You would scrap the nation's entire SIGINT collection because someone can accidentally or illegally misuse their power? That's um...incredible. What other things do you feel that way about? What other things should be destroyed because someone can misuse them?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    NSA doesn't have any access to it without a warrant, that's what I keep telling you. You're conflating storage with access.
    And I'm telling you you are incorrect, sir. Please review my links.



    Just look at the NSL's and tell me you believe this is not happening.
    You should try to remember, ideas are conveyed by researching information, vetting sources, and confirming said information. Not by regurgitating talking points given to you by your "news" station.
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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    [QUOTE=OldWorldOrder;1063976499]
    Quote Originally Posted by gonzo rodeo
    The Circuit just heard arguments last week. It could be a while before we know.
    Oh?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/28/us...anted=all&_r=0

    U.S. can keep court orders, phone cos secret in NSA spy case | Reuters

    It seems it's not nearly as cut-and-dried as you purport. It's almost like- wait for it- it's simply your opinion that it should be illegal, so you call it illegal, when that's not really your determination to make. Like I've been saying.
    Oh, you say? Yeah... neither of those cases you linked are appeals. It's also not just my opinion that it is illegal, now that certain truths have been exposed to sunlight.

    I linked a District case decided December 16, 2013 (Klayman v. Obama). Your New York Times link above (ACLU v. Clapper) is a parallel District case decided two weeks later over almost the very same thing (slight differences in how it was being argued). Your Reuters link (EFF v. DOJ) was a District case covering the secret orders issued to the phone companies (which, as it turns out, did force the government to explain some shadier aspects of the PATRIOT Act and how it is involved). The appeal for Klayman v. Obama hit the Circuit on the 4th, so we'll see in a little while what two Reagan appointees and a W appointee say in appeal. Then either way, it's a year or three before the USSC either hears it or officially declines.

    In all of the cases against the NSA and the federal government in the last 15 years, ALL of them have revolved around the government claiming "state's secrets" privilege while simultaneously seeking dismissal on the grounds that the contesting parties cannot prove they were the targets of surveillance, let alone illegal surveillance. That's a neat trick, isn't it? "We don't have to tell you anything we've done wrong, and you can't prove we did anything wrong (because we don't have to tell you what we actually did)". The fact that such a construct was built into the PATRIOT Act (and even to some extent in 1978 with FISA) should give you pause. It's basically a blank check entitling the US Government to ignore anyone's First and Fourth Amendment rights, totally in secret, without oversight or chance for redress, for reasons they don't even have to share.

    You do not have to be a constitutional scholar to know that is not constitutional. What should pique your curiosity further is the fact that real dents in these abrogations of constitutional protections have only been made possible by whistleblowers. Snowden, for example, leaked the secret order for Verizon to divulge it's data, which gave private citizens the proof that they had been the subjects of an illegal search/seizure. Take a look at these:

    Before Snowden: The Whistleblowers Who Tried To Lift The Veil : NPR
    William Binney (U.S. intelligence official) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Thomas Andrews Drake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Mark Klein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Trailblazer Project - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Jewel v. NSA - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Hepting v. AT&T - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    https://www.eff.org/cases/shubert-v-bush
    https://www.eff.org/cases/first-unit...-angeles-v-nsa

    No, it's kinda harmful to intelligence collection. But, ya know, people can sit on the sidelines and criticize it, because it's not their job. It's not their ass if there's attack, or someone gets kidnapped, or whatever. They can just sit there and Monday morning quarterback- it's not their responsibility and the likelihood it will affect any one person is really, really low. It's extremely easy to be critical of something when your nuts aren't on the line, isn't it?
    If it's harmful to intelligence collection against US citizens without specific cause or warrant... good. That list above makes a very excellent case for people actively fighting a very existent Big Brother. This stuff used to be the domain of tin-foil hat wearing truthers that made blog posts while hiding from black helicopters. As it turns out... it's all true! The government isn't even denying it, but rather hiding behind secret edicts and privilege. The NSA not only has the ability to tap into any form of electronic communication in existence, but they do it on a regular basis as well. The extent to which it was capable, not even the most creative conspiracy theorist could have probably pieced together. So far, the only real defense for this kind of power even existing in the first place is that there couldn't possibly be enough manpower to spy on little old Joe Blow from Anytown, USA, so don't worry about it America! Relax! Go back to work! Watch your local sports teams on network television and forget all about this! You should have nothing to worry about if you're doing nothing wrong.Why 'I Have Nothing to Hide' Is the Wrong Way to Think About Surveillance | WIRED

    I've already declared that I disagreed with the further extent of Snowden's leaks on our active foreign collection missions, but I also get why he did it. To quote Sam Kineson, "I don't condone it, but I understand it." Some of it even deserves to be exposed. Take, for example, the alleged counter-collection and trade scheme between the Five Eyes countries - where we spy on their citizens and they spy on ours and we trade the info - if this is true, then that means it's all part of an intentional, unconstitutional collection against US citizens and as such deserves to be exposed. It is not the fault of the exposers for all of the damage that could potentially fall out from exposing such a program - it's the fault of the unconstitutional program! All the stuff about China, that was way over the line in my opinion... but, again, it also demonstrated things that are being carried out against US citizens without specific cause or warrant. And it was also a direct threat to the administration (that was threatening Snowden at the time, if you'll recall) to back off or else even more damaging things would come out. The administration didn't listen. It happened. Snowden is playing a very dangerous game, and in a way that I don't particularly enjoy, but he is playing it well.

    Don't get me wrong, these tools exist, and we're not the only ones that have them. I get the fact that there is a full scale cyber war being waged 25 hours a day, 367 days a year. I want us to have the capability to protect national assets and cause harm to foreign assets if necessary. But there are higher laws in play that protect US citizens from the US government, no matter how high minded and citizen-focused their goals might be.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    Re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Don't forget Ana Montes, Aldrich Ames, or Robert Hansen! Heroes all!
    Perhaps in your world, but not mine.

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