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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I doubt very many people have the needed experience. Though considering you have about a million and a half people with top secret clearance, I suppose that pool is growing larger all the time...

    For the rest though that don't all they have to rely on is how much faith they put in the government. It was good to see though that the majority of Americans weren't willing to make that leap.
    Saying that people who want comprehensive reforms at the NSA, think that as a national defense policy that we need to know nothing, is just a false dichotomy. What does it say of the government if they think that for the US to defend itself, it must spy on its own citizens?? No, HELL NO! Not only are the American citizens against this, reforms to the NSA has had BI-partisan support in Washington.

    On Wednesday, May 7, the House Judiciary Committee unanimously passed the “USA Freedom Act,” written by U.S. Rep. James Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.). The bill has received broad support from privacy and civil liberties groups. Sensenbrenner says he wants to make it clear that Congress does not support current NSA spying and data collection programs............

    http://ivn.us/2014/05/08/house-commi...rm-nsa-spying/
    Last edited by Montecresto; 08-13-14 at 03:45 PM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Mic check.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    You're loud & clear.


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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    What a putz this guy is....I hope when he is caught he spends the rest of his natural life behind bars.
    Seeing anybody draped in the American flag makes me swoon.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    have a bad feeling we'll have to spend the next few decades watching this guy b!tch and complain about wanting to come home. You wanted to be famous pal, and you got what you wanted. Now enjoy your lifetime stay in Siberia!

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Oh, I'm content with it. Do you suggest that court be open to the public? Do you think that would defeat the purpose in any way?
    Of course the decisions should be made public. If FBI goes in and asks to get a wiretap for individual Y, or whatever, that's fine, keep it secret and release the aggregated data. But you know that some of their decisions have the effect of making law, and VASTLY altering and expanding the powers of the intelligence agencies to collect and disseminate raw personal data. The Verizon order by the FISA court (leaked by Snowden) required Verizon to turn over to FBI/NSA ALL call metadata. Damn right we have a right to know that information is being collected by our government, and the only way we know that today is Snowden leaked a secret court order.

    And, sure, disclosure defeats the purpose of secret surveillance. But government shouldn't gain the authority to gather ALL the call metadata from all our phone conversations through a secret court order. If we can't keep ourselves safe without a secret police state, then we have a choice as a society about what to to. You're suggesting that we have no right to MAKE a choice - NSA and the FISA court and small intelligence committees who cannot disclose their decisions make them FOR US.

    I'm quite positive I know how call chain analysis is done. I also know that what you're talking about is considered reverse targeting, and is highly illegal.
    But that's only part of the problem. Would you accept having your house searched from top to bottom because you're three hops from a suspected murderer? Of course not. But you want us to accept that our electronic records be subject to such searches for the same reason? It's an extraordinary power to grant our intelligence/police agencies. At the very least we should have public debates about these things and make those type decisions in the open, not in secret.

    They're just normal folks...did you ever say what you thought they were? Are they supposedly evil?
    Right, and I'm sure almost all of them are doing great work, are fine patriots, etc. No sarcasm intended - I've got family involved in stuff that I have NO IDEA what they're doing - it's secret enough their spouses (supposedly) have no idea what they're doing, but I trust them and know they believe in their work. But I think rational people should be wary of that kind of power being wielded in near total darkness from accountability to the people they're tasked to protect.

    I'm thinking about it pretty clearly. You're just saying that it can be used for illegal means at some point. I agree, it could. So could guns. What should we do about it?
    All we can do is have transparency and accountability. Before Snowden, we couldn't possible hold our intelligence agencies accountable because almost no one knew what they were doing.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    Of course the decisions should be made public. If FBI goes in and asks to get a wiretap for individual Y, or whatever, that's fine, keep it secret and release the aggregated data. But you know that some of their decisions have the effect of making law, and VASTLY altering and expanding the powers of the intelligence agencies to collect and disseminate raw personal data. The Verizon order by the FISA court (leaked by Snowden) required Verizon to turn over to FBI/NSA ALL call metadata. Damn right we have a right to know that information is being collected by our government, and the only way we know that today is Snowden leaked a secret court order.
    Why? All that did was alert people to a capability. For what? Curiosity? That the government, with a court order, can look at what Verizon already had but wasn't storing? I fail to see how that's a good thing.

    And, sure, disclosure defeats the purpose of secret surveillance. But government shouldn't gain the authority to gather ALL the call metadata from all our phone conversations through a secret court order. If we can't keep ourselves safe without a secret police state, then we have a choice as a society about what to to. You're suggesting that we have no right to MAKE a choice - NSA and the FISA court and small intelligence committees who cannot disclose their decisions make them FOR US.
    That's what a government does. You elect people to make those choices. That's what they did and that's what they continue to do, thankfully. Keeping Verizon's records in order to look at them later with a court order is a "secret police state"? That's just silly hyperbole, like saying that a social security number is akin to being tattooed with a number in a concentration camp. What's served by such hyperbole? Seriously, what's the point? Again, thankfully policymakers rarely fall for such things. This is national defense, not an opportunity for ridiculous exaggerations.

    But that's only part of the problem. Would you accept having your house searched from top to bottom because you're three hops from a suspected murderer? Of course not. But you want us to accept that our electronic records be subject to such searches for the same reason? It's an extraordinary power to grant our intelligence/police agencies. At the very least we should have public debates about these things and make those type decisions in the open, not in secret.
    I don't think anyone wants their house searched, but if a federal judge issues a warrant for it what are you going to do? These people interpret the laws. Do you want laws or not? I don't want to be pulled over for speeding, but ya know, I realize that it's probably a good idea to have speed limits in certain places. "Do you want your house searched?" is a silly argument. Ask someone "Do you want to be restricted from some places?" and I'm sure the answer is no. I'm also sure that same person would realize that nuclear power plants should have some restrictions on who traipses around in them. Again, freedom vs security.

    Right, and I'm sure almost all of them are doing great work, are fine patriots, etc. No sarcasm intended - I've got family involved in stuff that I have NO IDEA what they're doing - it's secret enough their spouses (supposedly) have no idea what they're doing, but I trust them and know they believe in their work. But I think rational people should be wary of that kind of power being wielded in near total darkness from accountability to the people they're tasked to protect.
    But there IS accountability. There's the whole legislative branch, that we voted on for precisely these kinds of things! People in the judicial branch dedicate their professional lives to the pursuit of law and are appointed by the people we vote to lead us for precisely these things! It's not to be discussed in the pages of USA Today or on the 6 o'clock news.

    All we can do is have transparency and accountability. Before Snowden, we couldn't possible hold our intelligence agencies accountable because almost no one knew what they were doing.
    This is our fundamental disagreement: I don't think intelligence operations should be transparent to the public. Absolutely not. I believe they need accountability, and that that stems from legislative and judicial branches- not from the media and not from the general public.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Snowden can shove that flag right up his ass.
    There are things that should not be done to the flag. That would be very high on the list.

    Edit: using it as a prop to buy sympathy is also high on the list.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    Patriotism isn't about obeying the law or loyalty to the government. It's about being loyal to the country and the ideals it was founded on. Arguably, Snowden showed that more than any other scumbag in the NSA. At least he didn't feel the need to boldface lie to the American public about the government's surveillance habits.
    Just out of curiosity, how do you think the founding fathers would have reacted to some one who leaked their secret documents? I am going to go out on a limb and suggest they would have not treated him well...
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    Dood, he didn't run to the Russians. Who told you that? Do you realize how it can to be that he was stranded in Russia?
    Stranded in Russia by his own actions. If you break the law, you cannot cry that people want to charge you with a crime.
    We became a great nation not because we are a nation of cynics. We became a great nation because we are a nation of believers - Lindsey Graham

    Quote Originally Posted by Fiddytree View Post
    Uh oh Megyn...your vagina witchcraft is about ready to be exposed.

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