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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Wouldn't that be odd? NSA just happened to find the people that have no problem with it?
    no, it's not odd, because there are WAY more than 40,000 people who have no problem with it in this country (that was my original post, to which you sarcastically replied "okay")

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    No, that's not my argument. My argument is there's no evidence for it, and I generally don't believe things with no evidence. I don't believe Leonardo DiCaprio is FDR's grandson, I don't believe that aircraft carriers can fly, etc. Because I've seen no evidence of it. That 40,000 mysteriously don't have a problem with what NSA does only acts as corroborating evidence to my position.
    in this same snippet, you say "No that's not my argument" as though you didn't use the fact that 40,000 people haven't come forward as evidence to support your position, THEN you say that 40,000 people not having a problem with the NSA supports your position.

    my first post in this thread was not intended to address your entire overall position, but rather your argument that 40,000 people not having come forward is any kind of evidence to support your position. it's not evidence to support your position. 40,000 folks not having a problem with the NSA is not evidence of anything other than that at least 40,000 people don't have a problem with the NSA.

    i mean, you could go work for the NSA, and if they were spying on everyone, would you report it to the public? maybe you would, but there are plenty (many more than 40,000) people who are not evil who would not report it to the public. that's why the 40,000 employees argument fails.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by bg85 View Post
    no, it's not odd, because there are WAY more than 40,000 people who have no problem with it in this country (that was my original post, to which you sarcastically replied "okay")
    And...they'd all just end up working at the same place, coincidentally?

    in this same snippet, you say "No that's not my argument" as though you didn't use the fact that 40,000 people haven't come forward as evidence to support your position, THEN you say that 40,000 people not having a problem with the NSA supports your position.
    It supports my argument. It does not encompass my argument. There's a difference. That Michael Jordan has the highest scoring average over his career in the history of the NBA supports my argument that he's the best NBA player ever, but it does not encompass it.

    my first post in this thread was not intended to address your entire overall position, but rather your argument that 40,000 people not having come forward is any kind of evidence to support your position. it's not evidence to support your position. 40,000 folks not having a problem with the NSA is not evidence of anything other than that at least 40,000 people don't have a problem with the NSA.

    i mean, you could go work for the NSA, and if they were spying on everyone, would you report it to the public? maybe you would, but there are plenty (many more than 40,000) people who are not evil who would not report it to the public. that's why the 40,000 employees argument fails.
    That's just very odd. Instead of getting a cross-section of the population, for some reason this one agency- with its myriad of military members, analysts, statisticians, linguists, mathematicians, cryptologists, etc- somehow gets a very specific, homogeneous portion of them. What do you think the statistical deviation would be that 99% of them would be people that wouldn't have a problem with it? What percentage of Americans in general do you think would have a problem with it?

    What would explain the difference in those two numbers?
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    And...they'd all just end up working at the same place, coincidentally?
    well it's not a coincidence. no one is going to work somewhere they think is evil, so naturally the only people who apply to work there are from the group of people who don't think it's evil.

    It supports my argument. It does not encompass my argument. There's a difference. That Michael Jordan has the highest scoring average over his career in the history of the NBA supports my argument that he's the best NBA player ever, but it does not encompass it.
    you're hung up on the use of the term "argument". your overall position (to paraphrase) is that snowden is a douche. that's fine. he might be a douche. one of the arguments you used to support that he is a douche is the 40,000 employees argument. THAT argument is invalid, which is what i've been trying to explain to you. i'm not addressing ANYTHING about the overall position of whether or not snowden is a douche.

    That's just very odd. Instead of getting a cross-section of the population, for some reason this one agency- with its myriad of military members, analysts, statisticians, linguists, mathematicians, cryptologists, etc- somehow gets a very specific, homogeneous portion of them. What do you think the statistical deviation would be that 99% of them would be people that wouldn't have a problem with it? What percentage of Americans in general do you think would have a problem with it?
    as i said above, the only people who apply to the NSA are those who don't think it's evil. it's not like they just take 40,000 random folks and say "okay you work for the NSA now" and every single one of those people just happen to agree the NSA isn't evil. the reason it's a specific, homogeneous portion of the general population is that only a specific, homogeneous portion of the general population applies to work there! (specifically, the population that doesn't have any problems with the NSA)

    oh and i think you mean "standard deviation" instead of "statistical deviation" but neither one really makes any sense in that context. i think "probability" is the word you're looking for.
    Last edited by bg85; 11-14-14 at 07:04 PM.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by bg85 View Post
    well it's not a coincidence. no one is going to work somewhere they think is evil, so naturally the only people who apply to work there are from the group of people who don't think it's evil.
    ...how would they have known?

    you're hung up on the use of the term "argument". your overall position (to paraphrase) is that snowden is a douche. that's fine. he might be a douche. one of the arguments you used to support that he is a douche is the 40,000 employees argument. THAT argument is invalid, which is what i've been trying to explain to you. i'm not addressing ANYTHING about the overall position of whether or not snowden is a douche.
    Yes, one of my points is that it's extremely unlikely for 40,000 random people to all agree with spying on Americans. Not 40,000 people in general, but out of a cross-section of Americans, that 99.9% of that cross section group would have no problem. The odds of that occurring are extremely low.

    as i said above, the only people who apply to the NSA are those who don't think it's evil. it's not like they just take 40,000 random folks and say "okay you work for the NSA now" and every single one of those people just happen to agree the NSA isn't evil. the reason it's a specific, homogeneous portion of the general population is that only a specific, homogeneous portion of the general population applies to work there! (specifically, the population that doesn't have any problems with the NSA)
    How would they know anything about NSA allegedly spying on Americans? It's November 2014. Snowden came out in the spring/summer of 2013. NSA didn't have a huge turnover of employees since then.
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by TeleKat View Post
    Patriotism isn't about obeying the law or loyalty to the government. It's about being loyal to the country and the ideals it was founded on. Arguably, Snowden showed that more than any other scumbag in the NSA. At least he didn't feel the need to boldface lie to the American public about the government's surveillance habits.
    He's dirt.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    ...how would they have known?
    it's well known the NSA spies on people. anyone who applies to the NSA is going to be the type of person who doesn't mind working for an organization that spies on people.

    Yes, one of my points is that it's extremely unlikely for 40,000 random people to all agree with spying on Americans. Not 40,000 people in general, but out of a cross-section of Americans, that 99.9% of that cross section group would have no problem. The odds of that occurring are extremely low.

    How would they know anything about NSA allegedly spying on Americans? It's November 2014. Snowden came out in the spring/summer of 2013. NSA didn't have a huge turnover of employees since then.
    but they're not random! the cross section that works there came from another cross section - the folks who applied there. no one is going to apply there who has moral issues with spying on private citizens, because it was known already that the NSA did that. the extent to which perhaps not, but anyone who is going to apply to a spy agency is probably not going to have any issues with that agency doing some spying.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by bg85 View Post
    it's well known the NSA spies on people. anyone who applies to the NSA is going to be the type of person who doesn't mind working for an organization that spies on people.



    but they're not random! the cross section that works there came from another cross section - the folks who applied there. no one is going to apply there who has moral issues with spying on private citizens, because it was known already that the NSA did that. the extent to which perhaps not, but anyone who is going to apply to a spy agency is probably not going to have any issues with that agency doing some spying.
    ???

    NSA spies on other countries. It doesn't spy on American citizens without a specific warrant. Only after Snowden did people start to wrongfully think so (as we see in this thread and with even your post). So there's no reason to believe that prior to 2013 anyone who applied to work there would be okay with spying in American citizens at all.

    After 2013, maybe some people who wanted to do so did apply. If hired, they were probably highly disappointed.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    ???

    NSA spies on other countries. It doesn't spy on American citizens without a specific warrant. Only after Snowden did people start to wrongfully think so (as we see in this thread and with even your post). So there's no reason to believe that prior to 2013 anyone who applied to work there would be okay with spying in American citizens at all.

    After 2013, maybe some people who wanted to do so did apply. If hired, they were probably highly disappointed.
    i've always thought the NSA spied on whoever the NSA wanted to spy on.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by bg85 View Post
    i've always thought the NSA spied on whoever the NSA wanted to spy on.
    That is not accurate.
    "It's always reassuring to find you've made the right enemies." -- William J. Donovan

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by bg85 View Post
    i've always thought the NSA spied on whoever the NSA wanted to spy on.
    And they do - Snowden and Wiki Leaks have put a light on the illegality of our governments doings and there's no putting that toothpaste back in the tube.
    I think if Thomas Jefferson were looking down, the author of the Bill of Rights, on whats being proposed here, hed agree with it. He would agree that the First Amendment cannot be absolute. - Chuck Schumer (D). Yet, Madison and Mason wrote the Bill of Rights, according to Sheila Jackson Lee, 400 years ago. Yup, it's a fact.


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