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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Risky Thicket View Post
    I wonder how you know that the vast majority of them have no problem with what the NSA does?

    The NSA is compartmentalized and as such the vast majority of the NSA doesn't know what the vast majority of the NSA does. Even then I don't know that there has been any published survey or research regarding the question.



    I'll take "Something else" for $50, Bob.

    Perhaps we should ask Snowden why no one speaks out publicly.
    Yeah, most people value their jobs, makes it very difficult to call your employer out. And seeing Snowden treatment, isn't motivational. People continue to forget that amongst candidate Obama's promises were increased protections for whistleblowers. Well, he's prosecuted more of them then any predecessor, surprised?
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Trusting the FISA has prudent oversight is comical.

    How Three Decades Of Conservative Chief Justices Turned The FISA Court Into A Rubber Stamp
    from the FISC:-both-the-wheels-AND-the-grease dept
    The FISA court has been deemed a "rubber stamp" and with good reason. Not a single request was rejected over the last two years and over the last twelve years, the court has only rejected 10 out of 20,909 requests.

    FISA Court Has Rejected .03 Percent Of All Government Surveillance Requests

    Now who thinks our scandal ridden cumbersome government has gotten it right 99.7% of the time.

    http://www.npr.org/2013/06/10/190453...lance-warrants

    http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2013...reject-request

    https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20...er-stamp.shtml
    Last edited by Montecresto; 08-13-14 at 01:25 PM.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Former FISA judge sees problems in secret court
    By Bill Mears

    A former federal judge who served on a secret court overseeing the government's foreign surveillance program told the president's newly reconstructed privacy board on Tuesday that the FISA judicial body has serious problems.


    http://security.blogs.cnn.com/2013/0...lance-efforts/
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    It really all boils down to how blindly you're willing to trust the government. Some people could never imagine the possibility of the government misusing there resources, and these are the ones that often remark "I've got nothing to hide, the government can monitor all the calls of mine they want". The problem here is that this information is stored, for anyone who knows how to get access to it. This also is the same government that in the past few years have cracked down on political opponents, seized information from reporters, and have murdered it's own citizens without a trial.

    How far does a government need to go before one starts to get concerned?
    It also boils down to how much experience you have with the agency and discipline in question.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Well, some people consider the FISA courts to be meaningful restraints. Certainly legal restraint. I mean according to those federal judges, anyway. And near blanket coverage is simply not true, period. Unless you have a very liberal definition of "near".
    You mean the secret court that issues secret orders? Yeah, sure, I am satisfied with that restraint, especially since in this courtroom there is no advocate present except the government wanting information.

    And "near blanket" is obviously a loose term, but what we do know is the information gathered is indiscriminate. It's how they can do three hop analyses off a suspect. So if a journalist calls a contact in the Afghanistan government, and that contact calls his third cousin, who has a son working for a charity that five years later becomes a suspect in an investigation, all the journalist's records are fair game, and that's if they go by the rules. And of course, they have to have had all those records to search, going back years, which they DO have. Obviously, any journalist doing investigative work, or any activist or protester or other person doing anything the government doesn't like much, likely falls into dozens of three hop analyses, and so can have their records legally examined.

    Do you wonder why, of the 40,000+ folks who work at NSA, the vast, vast majority of them have no problem with what it does? They who know much more of it than normal folks? Is it because they're all bad people? Dumb? Or could it be something else?
    What strikes me there is the casual reference to 40,000 individuals at NSA, with a mostly black budget doing stuff no one knows about..... FORTY THOUSAND employees! And that surely doesn't include at least 10s of thousands of other employees at private companies doing NSA work. That's a whole lot of folks doing work we can't know anything about...

    But as to your question, I have no doubt almost all of the employees think they're doing, and ARE doing, important work for the benefit of the U.S. But that's irrelevant because if that information is gathered about YOU, and you're a political opponent of the current administration, or an activist, or a protester, or a whistle blower, then it's a database query to get all YOUR records, and all you can do is 'trust' the government not to abuse the powers we gave them. Sorry, but if you're working against, say, a corrupt government and then trusting that corrupt government to not use information it has gathered on you, you're not thinking about this very clearly.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Judges in charge of allowing NSA data gathering buy Verizon shares.

    http://www.timeslive.co.za/scitech/2...verizon-shares
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    From all I've seen the NSA has nearly blanket coverage of all communications - that data is being collected. At the very least, the who, what, when and where is being collected, if not the content, and whether the content is being gathered is subject to controversy. And so the only check on it is their ability to look at it.
    Content, no. Otherwise, yes. They're always going to have the ability to do it, so all you're proposing is one more check than is currently available: don't use that ability.

    But do you trust NSA, and all future NSA's to not look at data they have? If you're a protester, activist, what I think you MUST assume is that ALL your communications are monitored, collected, and viewed by the police state. It's just a more effective version of the Stasi.
    It's not that effective: I've worked there. So "trust" becomes a bit silly because that's all anyone has, right? Do you 'trust' a court do rule in your favor? Do you 'trust' all of your neighbors to not steal your stuff? Do you 'trust' all the other drivers on the road?

    And beyond that, the only reason we think we might know SOME of what NSA is doing (which NSA officials have repeatedly lied about, or told deliberate half truths) is because of the Snowden leaks.
    And it did no good whatsoever. Just hurt American intelligence collection capabilities. Not a huge fan of that, myself.

    What some people have objected to is Snowden's leaks of programs we use to spy on other nations - including pretty massive efforts of industrial espionage. Well, either we believe in the right to privacy or we don't. It's not a consistent position to protect the right to privacy of AMERICAN CITIZENS, but then believe all other world inhabitants deserve zero privacy, if their personal information benefits the U.S.
    What? Are you proposing that intelligence collection everywhere just stop? That's funny you brought up trust before. Do you just "trust" that other nations don't do it and utilize to their advantage? Enough that the US should stop doing so? That's a lot of trust from some guy that doesn't trust a bunch of people that live in the Baltimore suburbs and considers them the equivalent of the Stasi, don't ya think?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    You mean the secret court that issues secret orders? Yeah, sure, I am satisfied with that restraint, especially since in this courtroom there is no advocate present except the government wanting information.
    Oh, I'm content with it. Do you suggest that court be open to the public? Do you think that would defeat the purpose in any way?

    And "near blanket" is obviously a loose term, but what we do know is the information gathered is indiscriminate. It's how they can do three hop analyses off a suspect. So if a journalist calls a contact in the Afghanistan government, and that contact calls his third cousin, who has a son working for a charity that five years later becomes a suspect in an investigation, all the journalist's records are fair game, and that's if they go by the rules. And of course, they have to have had all those records to search, going back years, which they DO have. Obviously, any journalist doing investigative work, or any activist or protester or other person doing anything the government doesn't like much, likely falls into dozens of three hop analyses, and so can have their records legally examined.
    I'm quite positive I know how call chain analysis is done. I also know that what you're talking about is considered reverse targeting, and is highly illegal.

    What strikes me there is the casual reference to 40,000 individuals at NSA, with a mostly black budget doing stuff no one knows about..... FORTY THOUSAND employees! And that surely doesn't include at least 10s of thousands of other employees at private companies doing NSA work. That's a whole lot of folks doing work we can't know anything about...
    They're just normal folks...did you ever say what you thought they were? Are they supposedly evil?

    But as to your question, I have no doubt almost all of the employees think they're doing, and ARE doing, important work for the benefit of the U.S. But that's irrelevant because if that information is gathered about YOU, and you're a political opponent of the current administration, or an activist, or a protester, or a whistle blower, then it's a database query to get all YOUR records, and all you can do is 'trust' the government not to abuse the powers we gave them. Sorry, but if you're working against, say, a corrupt government and then trusting that corrupt government to not use information it has gathered on you, you're not thinking about this very clearly.
    I'm thinking about it pretty clearly. You're just saying that it can be used for illegal means at some point. I agree, it could. So could guns. What should we do about it?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    It also boils down to how much experience you have with the agency and discipline in question.
    I doubt very many people have the needed experience. Though considering you have about a million and a half people with top secret clearance, I suppose that pool is growing larger all the time...

    For the rest though that don't all they have to rely on is how much faith they put in the government. It was good to see though that the majority of Americans weren't willing to make that leap.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hamster Buddha View Post
    I doubt very many people have the needed experience. Though considering you have about a million and a half people with top secret clearance, I suppose that pool is growing larger all the time...

    For the rest though that don't all they have to rely on is how much faith they put in the government. It was good to see though that the majority of Americans weren't willing to make that leap.
    I think it'd be better to trust people with that knowledge and experience than just like...a physician in North Dakota or a cable guy in Orlando, but...I guess that's just me. Thankfully, our policy-makers still side with me, we haven't yet fully embraced know-nothingism as a national defense policy.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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