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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Damn military servicemen and women. Bunch of lying, satanic, dictatorial, freedom-hating little Hitlers, am I right?



    However, so, no. You are not willing to try to defend Snowden's releases that have nothing to do whatsoever with the NSA metadata program. Noted.
    Considering the people who lied to us are the same ones telling us he released intel to terrorists one has to doubt a word those people say.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Considering the people who lied to us are the same ones telling us he released intel to terrorists one has to doubt a word those people say.
    Amen, brother. Just as you say - Veterans take their pay from the evil goberment, and are scum.

    In the meantime, however, just to make clear, you are neither capable nor willing to attempt to mount a defense of Snowden's actions in releasing massive amounts of information that had nothing whatsoever to do with the NSA metadata program?

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Amen, brother. Just as you say - Veterans take their pay from the evil goberment, and are scum.

    In the meantime, however, just to make clear, you are neither capable nor willing to attempt to mount a defense of Snowden's actions in releasing massive amounts of information that had nothing whatsoever to do with the NSA metadata program?
    Why I am going to debate made up claims by die hard anti-4th amendment nuts who think it is alright if the government spies on the people so those nuts make up claims of Snowden giving intel to the enemy?
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    Why I am going to debate made up claims by die hard anti-4th amendment nuts who think it is alright if the government spies on the people so those nuts make up claims of Snowden giving intel to the enemy?
    All I'm asking you is if you are willing to defend Snowden's actions.

    As for Snowden giving intel to the enemy, well, when you make it public, yeah. That's what happens. I could build a fairly effective case for even more so in private.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    All I'm asking you is if you are willing to defend Snowden's actions.

    As for Snowden giving intel to the enemy, well, when you make it public, yeah. That's what happens. I could build a fairly effective case for even more so in private.
    I think if you had any actual trustworthy sources of Snowden giving intel to the enemy you would have posted them by now.But no, your info is from people who are perfectly fine with the government wiping their ass with the 4th amendment.So your claims of Snowden's alleged actions are fraudulent.
    "A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within. An enemy at the gates is less formidable, for he is known and carries his banner openly. But the traitor moves amongst those within the gate freely, his sly whispers rustling through all the alleys, heard in the very halls of government itself. For the traitor appears not a traitor; he speaks in accents familiar to his victims, and he wears their face and their arguments, he appeals to the baseness that lies deep in the hearts of all men. He rots the soul of a nation, he works secretly and unknown in the night to undermine the pillars of the city, he infects the body politic so that it can no longer resist. A murder is less to fear"

    Cicero Marcus Tullius

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by jamesrage View Post
    I think if you had any actual trustworthy sources of Snowden giving intel to the enemy you would have posted them by now.But no, your info is from people who are perfectly fine with the government wiping their ass with the 4th amendment.
    A SHORT list that I have posted multiple times for Snowden's defenders, only to watch them each time refuse to even admit that he did this

    ...The classified portions of the U.S. intelligence budget, detailing how much we spend and where on efforts to spy on terror groups and foreign states, doesn’t deal with Americans’ privacy. This leak revealed the intelligence community’s self-assessment in 50 major areas of counterterrorism, and that “blank spots include questions about the security of Pakistan’s nuclear components when they are being transported, the capabilities of China’s next-generation fighter aircraft, and how Russia’s government leaders are likely to respond to ‘potentially destabilizing events in Moscow, such as large protests and terrorist attacks.’” The Pakistani, Chinese, and Russian intelligence agencies surely appreciate the status report.

    Our cyber-warfare capabilities and targets don’t deal with Americans’ privacy. The revelation that the U.S. launched 231 cyber-attacks against “top-priority targets, which former officials say includes adversaries such as Iran, Russia, China and North Korea and activities such as nuclear proliferation” in 2011 has nothing to do with Americans’ privacy.

    The extent and methods of our spying on China have nothing to do with Americans’ privacy.

    British surveillance of South African and Turkish diplomats has nothing to do with Americans’ privacy.

    The NSA’s successful interceptions of communications of Russian President Dimitri Medvedev has nothing to do with Americans’ privacy. This is not a scandal; it is literally the NSA’s job, and now the Russians have a better idea of what messages were intercepted and when.

    Revealing NSA intercepts and CIA stations in Latin America — again, nothing to do with U.S. citizens.

    Revealing a U.K. secret internet-monitoring station in the Middle East — nothing to do with U.S. citizens.

    The extent and range of NSA communications monitoring in India. . . .

    The fact that the United States has “ramped up its surveillance of Pakistan’s nuclear arms,” has “previously undisclosed concerns about biological and chemical sites there,” and details of “efforts to assess the loyalties of counterterrorism sources recruited by the CIA” . . .

    The U.S.’s spying on Al-Jazeera’s internal communication system. . . .

    What we know about al-Qaeda efforts to hack our drones. . . .

    The NSA’s ability to intercept the e-mail of al-Qaeda operative Hassan Ghul. . . .

    The NSA’s ability to read the e-mail of the Mexican president. . . .

    The U.S.’s electronic intercepts of communications to French consulates and embassies in New York and Washington. . . .

    The existence of NSA surveillance teams in 80 U.S. embassies around the globe . . .

    NSA’s spying on OPEC . . .

    NSA’s collecting data on the porn habits of Muslim extremist leaders in order to discredit them . . .

    . . . none of these stories have much of a tie to Americans’ privacy....

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    ...continued

    Fourth Amendment protections expanded significantly with Katz v. United States (1967).[37][39] In Katz, the Supreme Court expanded that focus to embrace an individual's right to privacy, and ruled that a search had occurred when the government wiretapped a telephone booth using a microphone attached to the outside of the glass. While there was no physical intrusion into the booth, the Court reasoned that: 1) Katz, by entering the booth and shutting the door behind him, had exhibited his expectation that "the words he utters into the mouthpiece will not be broadcast to the world"; and 2) society believes that his expectation was reasonable. Justice Potter Stewart wrote in the majority opinion that "the Fourth Amendment protects people, not places".[40] A "search" occurs for purposes of the Fourth Amendment when the government violates a person's "reasonable expectation of privacy."[41] Katz's reasonable expectation of privacy thus provided the basis to rule that the government's intrusion, though electronic rather than physical, was a search covered by the Fourth Amendment, and thus necessitated a warrant.[37][42] The Court said that it was not recognizing any general right to privacy in the Fourth Amendment,[43] and that this wiretap could have been authorized if proper procedures had been followed.[42]

    This decision in Katz was later developed into the now commonly used two-prong test, adopted in Smith v. Maryland (1979),[44] for determining whether the Fourth Amendment is applicable in a given circumstance:[45][46]

    a person "has exhibited an actual (subjective) expectation of privacy"; and
    society is prepared to recognize that this expectation is (objectively) reasonable.






    No, it's not. Saying "the government watches the government" absolutely does not satisfy the requirements of checks and balances.

    The Executive has appointment powers, but Congress has confirmation powers over those appointments; Congress has legislative powers, but the Judiciary has review powers over that legislation; lower courts are subject to review by higher courts through the appellate process; higher courts are filled by Executive appointment, which is subject to confirmation.... You see?

    The FISA court judge is appointed by the USSC Chief Justice, with no confirmation hearing; FISA court decisions placing citizens under orders are not open to judicial review (there is no appellate process); court opinion and case law is secret by nature, which precludes citizens who desire redress from seeking further legal remedy, which means there is no review of anything the FISA court does by a higher court... which means it's building it's own system of secret case law. There is a review panel, but it works to offer the government clarification and review on warrants that are rejected. So, the government gets to appeal the decisions of the court that hold it back from doing what it wants to do, but not the people it may be doing it against.



    No, it's not. Supervision implies the court watches the NSA and measures its performance. No court performs this job.

    Guidance, in this case, is referring to the building of a legal case. The FISA court will authorize certain methods and objects for collection, but it doesn't actively tell the NSA what to do and what not to do like you seem to be implying with "guidance". If the NSA wants to build a case against someone to turn over to the Justice Department, there are certain things they can't do when collecting evidence, and the purpose of the court is to 1) grant warrants, and 2) provide guidance in the obtaining of those warrants (i.e. "if you want to tap that guy's phone, you're going to have to bring me some evidence he's up to no good"... that kind of guidance).

    There is neither supervision nor guidance (in the way you were using the word) of the NSA being performed by any court.



    If said SIGINT is being applied against US citizens? That sounds like the purview of the Justice Department, I'd wager. Law enforcement is who would use any such information, and they would want any information they get to be constitutionally and legally obtained, or else the Judiciary will check that **** right on outta their courtroom. And, of course, the constitutionality of any such evidence would have to filter up through the normal court system, ultimately arriving at the Supreme Court for actual judicial review.



    You realize Top Secret gag orders prevent people from appealing to the Supreme Court, right? The Supreme Court can't review what it can't hear.



    You keep ignoring the fact that review is required to prove constitutionality (and, thus, true legality), and the way the court is set up there can be no review. But with the actions of Snowden, these practices may finally have their day in court, so to speak. Open court, that is, not the rubber-stamp "secret court" that has thus far been removed from all scrutiny.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/us...anted=all&_r=0
    “I cannot imagine a more ‘indiscriminate’ and ‘arbitrary’ invasion than this systematic and high-tech collection and retention of personal data on virtually every single citizen for purposes of querying and analyzing it without prior judicial approval,” Judge Leon wrote in a 68-page ruling. “Surely, such a program infringes on ‘that degree of privacy’ that the founders enshrined in the Fourth Amendment,” which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures.

    .....

    The case is the first in which a federal judge who is not on the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, which authorized the once-secret program, has examined the bulk data collection on behalf of someone who is not a criminal defendant.

    .....

    It also marks the first successful legal challenge brought against the program since it was revealed in June after leaks by the former N.S.A. contractor Edward J. Snowden.



    If the government is trying to collect data against constitutionally protected US citizens who are not the subjects of criminal investigations, then I'm glad their job is more difficult. Again, I really didn't like the foreign collection aspect of his whistleblowing, but I get why he did it. He also reported a massive collusion between the US and our allies that basically negates the constitution altogether by spying on each others citizens and simply trading the information. The fact that we have the capability and intent to spy on our allies? Yeah, that's politically damaging. But the reason why we do it? THAT'S unconstitutional!
    Literally all this boils down to is you think it should be illegal so that's all that matters. It's irrelevant what anyone else thinks, Gonzo Rodeo's interpretation is all that matters.

    Unfortunately, Gonzo Rodeo is not the arbiter of what's illegal and what's not. More's the pity.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    I must be missing something with Snowden, because there are a lot of people on the left and right who are normally civil liberties advocates who despise the guy. We know the head of NSA has no problem looking into a camera and lying to the Congress and the public about what the agency is doing. We now know the CIA spies on Senators investigating past wrongdoing and is more than happy to delete/disappear documents that reveal wrongdoing. We know that going through the chain of command is futile. The Obama administration is brutally cracking down on leakers, and is as we speak threatening to jail journalists for failing to reveal their sources, in their prosecution of leakers who revealed illegal activity by the intelligence agencies.

    So in a broad sense, without endorsing everything Snowden has done, I'm not sure what someone wanting to expose the extent of the police state in the U.S. is supposed to do? The NSA was simply operating without meaningful restraints, including gathering near blanket coverage of all electronic communications in the U.S., of everyone. And every check on their ability to sift through the data from non-terrorists (aka innocent Americans charged and suspected of no crimes) has been shown to be window dressing, ineffective.

    I guess I don't understand how a person can complain about the near total police state we live under, with our government having nearly unrestricted access to ALL our communications, then demonize a person who took a huge risk to expose it all. Sure, he's imperfect, and undoubtedly has made mistakes, but the venom directed against him by civil liberties advocates is really puzzling to me. I don't like that he's hiding out in Russia, and before that China, but the U.S. makes it impossible for him to seek refuge in any other country, so we can't exactly complain that he's not traveling because the U.S. has made that impossible. And I don't expect him to be arrested and voluntarily go to solitary, never to be heard from again, which is what the U.S. did to Manning, for far LESS.
    He made the mistake of exposing abuses by both parties. Well...hell...thats just not smart at all.
    I think maybe he could have done things differently. I dont know about his intent. One thing we DO know...Snowden was a pebble that tossed himself into the machine. He thought he would be by himself enough to cause the whole thing to come grinding to a halt. Insted, he was crushed and the machine grinds on. In the end...people are so invested in their political ideation and affiliation that they just...dont...care.

    Love him or hate him, agree or disagree with him...how does ANYONE feel about the obvious abuses of personal freedoms perpetrated by branches of the government? Read the article. What would you have done? I dont think there is a simple answer.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by cpwill View Post
    Amen, brother. Just as you say - Veterans take their pay from the evil goberment, and are scum.

    In the meantime, however, just to make clear, you are neither capable nor willing to attempt to mount a defense of Snowden's actions in releasing massive amounts of information that had nothing whatsoever to do with the NSA metadata program?
    Could it be that the NSA metadata program is not the only criminal actions by the US government?

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Hahaha see, there ya go, Gonzo. Right there in that post above.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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