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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    What a bunch of gobbly-gook.

    But, that is to be expected when a person is attempting to rationalize and support criminal government actions.
    No rationalizing on my part. But there are lots of people that are not willing or maybe capable of diferentiating, once they hate.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Reporting illegal or other wrongful activities to the same people who (probably) authorized it, or have an interest in keeping it secret, is not effective. There needs to an independent body with no conflict of interest to report problems to for a whistleblowing process to be effective.
    Do you really not understand the difference in the categories of information involved.
    (1) Publicly reporting cases of domestic breaches of constitutional rights.
    (2) Publicly reporting legal information mining in the international theater.
    In case (1) you might have my attention and we could negotiate a sentence. In case (2) he deserves the highest possible punishment. Think Madoff and Noriega as examples of the quality of his crime.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    No rationalizing on my part. But there are lots of people that are not willing or maybe capable of diferentiating, once they hate.
    I don't hate anybody, but I am very familiar with the US Constitution, and I am perceptive enough to know when the government is violating it.

    "...and no Warrant shall issue but upon probable cause..." is fairly plain English, and not difficult to understand. English is not my secondary language.

    Further, I understand the dynamic that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    I don't hate anybody, but I am very familiar with the US Constitution, and I am perceptive enough to know when the government is violating it.

    "...and no Warrant shall issue but upon probable cause..." is fairly plain English, and not difficult to understand. English is not my secondary language.

    Further, I understand the dynamic that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
    As far as you are on illegal domestic and I have said this before, you may have a point. But he did severe damage by publishing international and some domestic information on legal activities. That must be punished with the full force of the judicial system. And you have said not one word that points to a reason for clemency on those charges.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    As far as you are on illegal domestic and I have said this before, you may have a point. But he did severe damage by publishing international and some domestic information on legal activities. That must be punished with the full force of the judicial system. And you have said not one word that points to a reason for clemency on those charges.
    Considering that the Global War On Terror is in fact a Fraud Of Epic Proportions, I don't find your post persuasive in the least. Not valid.

    As the rules of American Jurisprudence states, fraud vitiates everything. The presence of fraud renders a legal action invalid. Fraud in any form cancels any legal document.

    When the government commits fraud against the people, the legal contract has been severed.

    I understand that reality does not frequently comport with the law, but the law is quite clear about fraud.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Do you really not understand the difference in the categories of information involved.
    (1) Publicly reporting cases of domestic breaches of constitutional rights.
    (2) Publicly reporting legal information mining in the international theater.
    In case (1) you might have my attention and we could negotiate a sentence. In case (2) he deserves the highest possible punishment. Think Madoff and Noriega as examples of the quality of his crime.
    Spying or collecting meta-data on people without any reasonable suspicion is wrong even if the people involved live outside the USA. I consider human rights universal, not a privilege gained by being fortunate enough to live in the right nation. It is not something I want my tax dollars used for. The decision to do that type of spying or meta-data collection should be made in open session by our elected representatives and subject to review by legitimate courts, not made in secret by bureaucrats with no genuine accountability for illegal or unehical actions. [FISA courts are not legit IMO] Also, our international spying may violate some of our international treaties, which have the force of law if fully ratified.
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 08-24-14 at 06:24 PM.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Henry David View Post
    Considering that the Global War On Terror is in fact a Fraud Of Epic Proportions, I don't find your post persuasive in the least. Not valid.

    As the rules of American Jurisprudence states, fraud vitiates everything. The presence of fraud renders a legal action invalid. Fraud in any form cancels any legal document.

    When the government commits fraud against the people, the legal contract has been severed.

    I understand that reality does not frequently comport with the law, but the law is quite clear about fraud.
    I don't know that it was a "fraud" and think that is typical Newspeak to call it that. But it was a misnomer in certain important respects.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Spying or collecting meta-data on people without any reasonable suspicion is wrong even if the people involved live outside the USA. I consider human rights universal, not a privilege gained by being fortunate enough to live in the right nation. It is not something I want my tax dollars used for. The decision to do that type of spying or meta-data collection should be made in open session by our elected representatives and subject to review by legitimate courts, not made in secret by bureaucrats with no genuine accountability for illegal or unehical actions. [FISA courts are not legit IMO] Also, our international spying may violate some of our international treaties, which have the force of law if fully ratified.
    I think, you should think it through again, because that is not a viable strategy in the international theater. It is not even clear that it will be viable domestically given the changes in technology. But I do not know, where your thinking goes off track, so I do not see how I can help you.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    I don't know that it was a "fraud" and think that is typical Newspeak to call it that. But it was a misnomer in certain important respects.
    The terms I use are the government's terms.

    What is typical Newspeak is, for example, that Snowden harmed the US by revealing the crimes. Or, that ISIS is some sort of threat to the US. Or, that Putin himself shot down MH 17.

    The Global War On Terror is a government term coined during Dubya's administration. It was bull**** then and it's bull**** now.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    I have to bump this. I was out of the country for work for a few months and as a rule I don't discuss politics on the internet outside of Five Eye countries. It's just common sense. Anywho:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Law is society's codification of right and wrong. Asking if something is legal or not is irrelevant.
    Then why do so many Snowden supporters insist that what the NSA does is illegal? I thought it didn't matter? Or wait, it only matters when it's convenient for someone's argument? I just find it hilarious that people just can't type the words "What the NSA is doing is legal." Like it physically hurts them to admit that. If legality doesn't matter, why can't they just say that? You spent a decent sized paragraph talking about how legality doesn't matter, so you'd think it'd be a pretty easy thing to say.

    The real question is: does the nature of collection performed by the NSA satisfy the requirement for specific oversight as outlined by the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America?
    But...you just said legality doesn't matter. Whether or not something is constitutional is a legal discussion.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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