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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    And now we're back to you talking about good and bad. What the ****, dude? Is it physically impossible for you to type the words "Yes, what the NSA is doing is legal" or something? If you have an allergy, let me know! You either pretend that it's not or just skip saying it and go right to examples of laws being bad. Why is it you can't simply state that the NSA is doing legal activities? This is getting to be a farce now; I gave you the benefit of the doubt but now this is just silly.

    Here: just say it's legal and we can avoid talking about it and go straight to good vs bad. I'm not even reading the rest of your post until you can be intellectually honest, sorry.
    Law is society's codification of right and wrong. Asking if something is legal or not is irrelevant. Is a person or agency doing something wrong? Slavery was legal, and it was wrong. The problem with this case is the very nature of secrecy involved. The USSC is the final arbiter in this country of right and wrong from a legal standpoint, and only comtemporarily at that (the court can and does overturn it's own decisions). If this information had never leaked, there would be no review. Do you get that? Legal and illegal are merely temporary distinctions of glorified right and punishable wrong. To ask if something is temporarily in one column or another on a ledger is completely arbitrary and worthless in the grand scheme.

    The real question is: does the nature of collection performed by the NSA satisfy the requirement for specific oversight as outlined by the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America?

    Snowden asked that question. It might actually get answered now.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Law is society's codification of right and wrong. Asking if something is legal or not is irrelevant. Is a person or agency doing something wrong? Slavery was legal, and it was wrong. The problem with this case is the very nature of secrecy involved. The USSC is the final arbiter in this country of right and wrong from a legal standpoint, and only comtemporarily at that (the court can and does overturn it's own decisions). If this information had never leaked, there would be no review. Do you get that? Legal and illegal are merely temporary distinctions of glorified right and punishable wrong. To ask if something is temporarily in one column or another on a ledger is completely arbitrary and worthless in the grand scheme.

    The real question is: does the nature of collection performed by the NSA satisfy the requirement for specific oversight as outlined by the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America?

    Snowden asked that question. It might actually get answered now.
    Exactly, its like arguing that the firebombing of Tokyo wasn't wrong, because targeting civilians wasn't recognised by the US as war crimes until 1975!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

  3. #293
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    The problem for Snowden is that there is no legal defense for treason. You either did or you didn't and he's already admitted he has. There's no "Yes I did but I had a super real good reason". He would never be able to mount a defense.

    He's doomed to a life in Russia for Putin to prance around every now and then and biding his time on anime forums.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    The law was broken, and Snowden has the right to face his accusers in court. If he weren't such a coward POS, he'd do that.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    He's not a whistleblower in the legal sense. He hasn't uncovered any illegal activity.

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Then he should come on back and put it all in the open to a judge. If he is a true whistle blower, there are laws to protect him, if he is just another petulant, cowardly, child that wants to throw a wrench into things, then he'll go to jail.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    The guy is a criminal, committed treason and he did huge damage. It would be really bad to create the precedence of rewarding such behavior. The way an intelligent society would handle it would be to change the laws where indicated, institutionalize a whistle-blowing method for the future and leave this man in Prison for 5 decades.
    Whistle blowing procedures implemented by people that should be exposed as immoral criminals will never be effective.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by TobyOne View Post
    The problem for Snowden is that there is no legal defense for treason. You either did or you didn't and he's already admitted he has. There's no "Yes I did but I had a super real good reason". He would never be able to mount a defense.

    He's doomed to a life in Russia for Putin to prance around every now and then and biding his time on anime forums.
    If you define treason as betraying your nation and its principals, then Snowden did not commit an act of treason. In fact he is a patriot who risked a lifetime in prison to protect the constitutional principals of due process and privacy. One may think that Snowden made the wrong call, but it can not be honestly denied that he acted for what he considered benevolent reasons.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by TobyOne View Post
    He's not a whistleblower in the legal sense. He hasn't uncovered any illegal activity.
    Some courts have ruled the uncovered activities illegal.

    "Judge Questions Legality of N.S.A. Phone RecordsBy CHARLIE SAVAGE
    Published: December 16, 2013
    WASHINGTON — A federal district judge ruled on Monday that the National Security Agency program that is systematically keeping records of all Americans’ phone calls most likely violates the Constitution, describing its technology as “almost Orwellian” and suggesting that James Madison would be “aghast” to learn that the government was encroaching on liberty in such a way.

    The judge, Richard J. Leon of Federal District Court for the District of Columbia, ordered the government to stop collecting data on the personal calls of the two plaintiffs in the case and to destroy the records of their calling history......“I cannot imagine a more ‘indiscriminate’ and ‘arbitrary’ invasion than this systematic and high-tech collection and retention of personal data on virtually every single citizen for purposes of querying and analyzing it without prior judicial approval,” Judge Leon wrote in a 68-page ruling. “Surely, such a program infringes on ‘that degree of privacy’ that the founders enshrined in the Fourth Amendment,” which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures...."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/us...anted=all&_r=0
    Last edited by Hard Truth; 08-17-14 at 06:36 PM.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    Sure the publication of the documents had positive impacts. That is fine and good.

    But that is not enough reason to discount the negatives. He simply went too far for that. Had he refrained from publicizing the foreign activities of NSA I could understand your position. As it is, no way.
    I live in the midst of a foreign population that went into a frenzy and is following very negative policy for the US because of the revelations. And after the Manning thing foreign agencies are less likely to reveal sources or even information for fear of embarrassment. The Snowden thing is costing the US dearly.

    That man must go to jail for treason.
    Exposing the crimes of government is patriotism, NOT treason.

    Informing citizens of methodical assaults on constitutional principles by the government is patriotism, not treason.

    Elected and appointed officials violating the constitution, THAT is treason.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    "Questions legality" doesn't mean much. We've seen how judges can be morons even at SC level.

    Regardless, at the time of Snowden's treason, it was legal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    Some courts have ruled the uncovered activities illegal.

    "Judge Questions Legality of N.S.A. Phone RecordsBy CHARLIE SAVAGE
    Published: December 16, 2013
    WASHINGTON — A federal district judge ruled on Monday that the National Security Agency program that is systematically keeping records of all Americans’ phone calls most likely violates the Constitution, describing its technology as “almost Orwellian” and suggesting that James Madison would be “aghast” to learn that the government was encroaching on liberty in such a way.

    The judge, Richard J. Leon of Federal District Court for the District of Columbia, ordered the government to stop collecting data on the personal calls of the two plaintiffs in the case and to destroy the records of their calling history......“I cannot imagine a more ‘indiscriminate’ and ‘arbitrary’ invasion than this systematic and high-tech collection and retention of personal data on virtually every single citizen for purposes of querying and analyzing it without prior judicial approval,” Judge Leon wrote in a 68-page ruling. “Surely, such a program infringes on ‘that degree of privacy’ that the founders enshrined in the Fourth Amendment,” which prohibits unreasonable searches and seizures...."
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/17/us...anted=all&_r=0

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Thats not the definition of treason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth View Post
    If you define treason as betraying your nation and its principals, then Snowden did not commit an act of treason. In fact he is a patriot who risked a lifetime in prison to protect the constitutional principals of due process and privacy. One may think that Snowden made the wrong call, but it can not be honestly denied that he acted for what he considered benevolent reasons.

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