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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    One of Obama's many campaign promises was to improve whistle blower protection laws, in fact he has prosecuted more of them than any predecessor. Snowden won't be back without written assurances.
    What? You mean Obama lied about something? Naw, perish the thought.
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    hahahahahahah

    It's like you didn't even read my post. But you quoted it so...





    What argument do you think I'm making?



    Well, see that's kinda the point. YES IT IS LEGAL. You just think it shouldn't be. That's what the judicial branch exists for: to decide what's legal and what's not. This is why we can't even get to talking about good or bad; if people can't even face the reality of what's legal, what's the point?
    Amendment IV:

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    The Constitution is the highest law in the land. This means any other law that contravenes the Constitution is, in fact, illegal. What Snowden did was expose the illegal nature of collection against the intent and literal text of the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. He did utilize proper channels and they did not work. The very nature of the secret oversight is part of the reason why this illegal activity is buried so far down and required a leaker to expose it. The orders requiring compliance for metadata were issued with gag orders, meaning there is no legal remedy to fight the seizure without breaking the law. This is the equivalent of the police breaking down your door and then handing you an order from the court saying you aren't allowed to complain about it to anyone or else you're going to go to jail. This is the very reason why a leaker was necessary to expose the wrongdoing on the part of the NSA.

    You can complain about the illegal nature of the stunt all you want, and I don't think anyone is saying what Snowden did isn't illegal, but right and wrong are very much intertwined in this debate. If you are going to stick with the "rule of law" argument, it is very pertinent to mention people like Rosa Parks and Claus von Stauffenberg who blatantly broke the law. Mentioning the rule of law also allows debate on higher laws, such as the Constitution... which, given that Snowden had never exposed certain secrets, would never have had the chance to reach the Supreme Court for judicial review. It still may never, but this debate absolutely never would have been given it's day in court, so to speak, if someone didn't break the law to force the issue.

    About the continued leaks, as well as Snowden's growing comfort with his hosts, we can blame the administration for thinking Snowden was bluffing when he said he had even more damaging goods in his pocket. They forced him into exile and gave him no reason at all to cooperate. All the administration had to do to put a lid on this thing was offer Snowden asylum as a whistleblower, say the NSA thing was a grave injustice, get him back in the states, and then lock him up in a black site forever and keep doing what they were doing. Americans have the attention span of goldfish. Nobody would have remembered PRISM in three months. But, no. The administration (who knew full what what was going on the whole time) didn't want the mild black eye in the first place. So now we have a full fledged secret-laden fire hose being hosted in a hostile land with no way to do anything about it... not without breaking about 100 treaties and international laws, which you seem to think is anathema to proper and civil order.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by X Factor View Post
    Oh, you're right, clearly the thing to do is run to the Russians. Look, I know there are some that think the US is the great evil in the world and like anything that harms the US, a lot of us just aren't in that place.
    He didn't run to the Russians, he just ended up there because they are the only country in the world that has the power (or should we say delusions of power) to thumb their noses at the US government when it comes to being pressured into delivering a suspect into US hands.

    Most countries would have helped the US if Snowden had ended up in their country and most other countries would bow under US pressure to do that. Russia might be the only one who would be willing to allow Snowden to live there. China would also be strong enough if they would have wanted too but I am sure they would have handed him over with no problem whatsoever.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Amendment IV:

    The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects,[a] against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.

    The Constitution is the highest law in the land. This means any other law that contravenes the Constitution is, in fact, illegal. What Snowden did was expose the illegal nature of collection against the intent and literal text of the Fourth Amendment of the Constitution of the United States. He did utilize proper channels and they did not work. The very nature of the secret oversight is part of the reason why this illegal activity is buried so far down and required a leaker to expose it. The orders requiring compliance for metadata were issued with gag orders, meaning there is no legal remedy to fight the seizure without breaking the law. This is the equivalent of the police breaking down your door and then handing you an order from the court saying you aren't allowed to complain about it to anyone or else you're going to go to jail. This is the very reason why a leaker was necessary to expose the wrongdoing on the part of the NSA.

    You can complain about the illegal nature of the stunt all you want, and I don't think anyone is saying what Snowden did isn't illegal, but right and wrong are very much intertwined in this debate. If you are going to stick with the "rule of law" argument, it is very pertinent to mention people like Rosa Parks and Claus von Stauffenberg who blatantly broke the law. Mentioning the rule of law also allows debate on higher laws, such as the Constitution... which, given that Snowden had never exposed certain secrets, would never have had the chance to reach the Supreme Court for judicial review. It still may never, but this debate absolutely never would have been given it's day in court, so to speak, if someone didn't break the law to force the issue.

    About the continued leaks, as well as Snowden's growing comfort with his hosts, we can blame the administration for thinking Snowden was bluffing when he said he had even more damaging goods in his pocket. They forced him into exile and gave him no reason at all to cooperate. All the administration had to do to put a lid on this thing was offer Snowden asylum as a whistleblower, say the NSA thing was a grave injustice, get him back in the states, and then lock him up in a black site forever and keep doing what they were doing. Americans have the attention span of goldfish. Nobody would have remembered PRISM in three months. But, no. The administration (who knew full what what was going on the whole time) didn't want the mild black eye in the first place. So now we have a full fledged secret-laden fire hose being hosted in a hostile land with no way to do anything about it... not without breaking about 100 treaties and international laws, which you seem to think is anathema to proper and civil order.
    It's a damn shame actual federal judges that know the law 10000000 times more than you or I disagree. Sorry, it's legal.

    Next?

    Did you want to talk about whether it's good or bad?

    Because it's legal. Sorry. I know you wish it wasn't. The law doesn't care.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    Most countries would have helped the US if Snowden had ended up in their country
    That's exactly why he went there.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    That's exactly why he went there.
    I honestly think it was a short stop in his own mind but he should have known better. Nobody would have wanted him so he was stuck there.
    Former military man (and now babysitter of Donald Trump) John Kelly, is a big loud lying empty barrel!

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    It's a damn shame actual federal judges that know the law 10000000 times more than you or I disagree. Sorry, it's legal.

    Next?

    Did you want to talk about whether it's good or bad?

    Because it's legal. Sorry. I know you wish it wasn't. The law doesn't care.
    Slavery was legal. People who freed slaves or deferred to them over their owners broke a bunch of laws. Those were bad laws, and we fought a war to get rid of them.

    The entire nature of what we are discussing - secrets - ensured there needed to be a leaker to expose the wrongdoing. Just like how civil rights needed civil disobedience to succeed. Criminals, the lot of them! But standing up to bad laws.

    Citing secret judges in secret courts as an appeal to authority is on par with asking addicts what we should do with all that cocaine.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter King View Post
    I honestly think it was a short stop in his own mind but he should have known better. Nobody would have wanted him so he was stuck there.
    I would really tend to doubt it...the only two places he sets foot in after releasing classified information are two that have adversarial relations with the US? Even if we paint him in the best light possible, it's still on purpose, that he only wanted to expose domestic things but brought information about overseas intelligence operations (his supporters always want to ignore that, yet another issue grappling with reality) to use as a bargaining chip to live a comfortable life, it would still mean he purposefully thought about customers for what he was peddling.

    I've never committed treason, but you'd have to assume you'd think ahead a little bit, right? Like it wasn't like me walking into the kitchen and randomly deciding on what to eat.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Slavery was legal. People who freed slaves or deferred to them over their owners broke a bunch of laws. Those were bad laws, and we fought a war to get rid of them.
    And now we're back to you talking about good and bad. What the ****, dude? Is it physically impossible for you to type the words "Yes, what the NSA is doing is legal" or something? If you have an allergy, let me know! You either pretend that it's not or just skip saying it and go right to examples of laws being bad. Why is it you can't simply state that the NSA is doing legal activities? This is getting to be a farce now; I gave you the benefit of the doubt but now this is just silly.

    Here: just say it's legal and we can avoid talking about it and go straight to good vs bad. I'm not even reading the rest of your post until you can be intellectually honest, sorry.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    I prefer to think of it as the American flag embraces Edward Snowden.


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