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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    The idea presented by you and cpwill in this thread suggest that the law is black and white. I have demonstrated that it is not with the example of civil disobedience. People like Rosa Parks broke the law, and are now heroes and champions of civil rights.
    Did Rosa Parks flee to Russia?
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    The idea presented by you and cpwill in this thread suggest that the law is black and white.
    Whether or not something is legal or illegal is, in fact, binary. Whether it's right or wrong is a different story. But if people don't even have the intellectual honesty to admit that what Snowden did was illegal and what NSA does is legal, how can we even go on from there?

    We can talk about right and wrong if you'd like. But we have to first settle what's legal.
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Did Rosa Parks flee to Russia?
    She was arrested. She was fired from her job as a seamstress. Her life was made much harder than it already was.

    You seem to think this was a good thing.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Whether or not something is legal or illegal is, in fact, binary. Whether it's right or wrong is a different story. But if people don't even have the intellectual honesty to admit that what Snowden did was illegal and what NSA does is legal, how can we even go on from there?

    We can talk about right and wrong if you'd like. But we have to first settle what's legal.
    Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg broke the law when he attempted to assassinate Hitler.

    I suppose his actions are reprehensible because he had no respect for the rule of law. I guess he deserved to die by firing squad, according to your argument. Justice was served.

    Also, what the NSA is doing is not legal. That is why some people don't have a problem with what Snowden did. The very mechanism that denied him from utilizing proper channels (the fact that there were none not withstanding in this case) is part of the overall legal question to begin with. The secrecy and gag orders are not subject to scrutiny by the very nature of secrecy. The only way wrongdoing ever gets exposed for these things is a technically illegal leak.
    Last edited by Gonzo Rodeo; 08-16-14 at 08:19 PM.
    "Political speech and writing are largely the defense of the indefensible. . . . Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness."
    ~Orwell, Politics and the English Language

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg broke the law when he attempted to assassinate Hitler.
    hahahahahahah

    It's like you didn't even read my post. But you quoted it so...

    Whether or not something is legal or illegal is, in fact, binary. Whether it's right or wrong is a different story. But if people don't even have the intellectual honesty to admit that what Snowden did was illegal and what NSA does is legal, how can we even go on from there?

    We can talk about right and wrong if you'd like. But we have to first settle what's legal.
    I suppose his actions are reprehensible because he had no respect for the rule of law. I guess he deserved to die by firing squad, according to your argument. Justice was served.
    What argument do you think I'm making?

    Also, what the NSA is doing is not legal.
    Well, see that's kinda the point. YES IT IS LEGAL. You just think it shouldn't be. That's what the judicial branch exists for: to decide what's legal and what's not. This is why we can't even get to talking about good or bad; if people can't even face the reality of what's legal, what's the point?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by NonoBadDog View Post
    Okay, I see the root of this disagreement with OldWorldOrder.

    I think the NSA does some stuff that is legal and have been caught doing some stuff that is not legal. I will not state that everything the NSA does is either legal or illegal.

    I would suggest reading the ruling of Judge John Bates from the FISC.
    http://www.lawfareblog.com/wp-conten...exemptions.pdf

    PAGE 28 Judge Bates states:
    But for the first time, the government has now advised the Court that the volume and nature of the information it has been collecting is fundamentally different from what the court had been led to believe.

    Page 29 Judge Bates, FISC, states:
    "The court is UNABLE (emphasis mine) to find that NSA's minimization procedures, as the government proposes to apply them in connection with MCTs are "reasonably designed in light of the purpose and technique of the particular [surveillance or physical search], to minimize the acquisition and retention, and prohibit the dissemination, of nonpublicly available information concerning unconsenting United States persons consistent with the need ot the United States to obtain, produce and disseminate foreign intelligence information"

    Same page he continues:
    The court is also UNABLE (emphasis mine) to find that NSA's targeting and minimization procedures, as the government proposes to implement them in connection with MCTs, ARE INCONSISTENT WITH THE FOURTH AMENDMENT (emphasis mine).

    MCT=multi-communication transactions

    I also recommend New FISC Pen Register Opinion: It

    I would say illegal stuff is going on. Just because nobody has gone to jail doesn't mean that someone hasn't broken the law. Hell, look at the IRS and VA situation, just to name a couple. Several Judges have had to reign in the NSA and the FBI because they collected data that they weren't authorized to collect.
    Well certainly, I would assume that most of the stuff the NSA does is legal. I just take issue with that part that's not. And don't care what OWO says, I wasn't debating him.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    She was arrested. She was fired from her job as a seamstress. Her life was made much harder than it already was.

    You seem to think this was a good thing.
    What makes you say that? Assuming things are we?
    Americans are so enamored of equality that they would rather be equal in slavery than unequal in freedom.

    Alexis de Tocqueville

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by NonoBadDog View Post
    Okay, I see the root of this disagreement with OldWorldOrder.

    I think the NSA does some stuff that is legal and have been caught doing some stuff that is not legal. I will not state that everything the NSA does is either legal or illegal.

    I would suggest reading the ruling of Judge John Bates from the FISC.
    http://www.lawfareblog.com/wp-conten...exemptions.pdf

    PAGE 28 Judge Bates states:
    But for the first time, the government has now advised the Court that the volume and nature of the information it has been collecting is fundamentally different from what the court had been led to believe.

    Page 29 Judge Bates, FISC, states:
    "The court is UNABLE (emphasis mine) to find that NSA's minimization procedures, as the government proposes to apply them in connection with MCTs are "reasonably designed in light of the purpose and technique of the particular [surveillance or physical search], to minimize the acquisition and retention, and prohibit the dissemination, of nonpublicly available information concerning unconsenting United States persons consistent with the need ot the United States to obtain, produce and disseminate foreign intelligence information"

    Same page he continues:
    The court is also UNABLE (emphasis mine) to find that NSA's targeting and minimization procedures, as the government proposes to implement them in connection with MCTs, ARE INCONSISTENT WITH THE FOURTH AMENDMENT (emphasis mine).

    MCT=multi-communication transactions

    I also recommend New FISC Pen Register Opinion: It

    I would say illegal stuff is going on. Just because nobody has gone to jail doesn't mean that someone hasn't broken the law. Hell, look at the IRS and VA situation, just to name a couple. Several Judges have had to reign in the NSA and the FBI because they collected data that they weren't authorized to collect.

    When the media and members of Congress say the NSA spies on Americans, what they really mean is that the FBI helps the NSA do it, providing a technical and legal infrastructure that permits the NSA, which by law collects foreign intelligence, to operate on U.S. soil. It's the FBI, a domestic U.S. law enforcement agency, that collects digital information from at least nine American technology companies as part of the NSA's Prism system. It was the FBI that petitioned the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court to order Verizon Business Network Services, one of the United States' biggest telecom carriers for corporations, to hand over the call records of millions of its customers to the NSA.


    http://www.foreignpolicy.com/article...nsa_dirty_work

    FISC/FISA/Grand Jury's, rubber stamps.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    Then he should come on back and put it all in the open to a judge. If he is a true whistle blower, there are laws to protect him, if he is just another petulant, cowardly, child that wants to throw a wrench into things, then he'll go to jail.
    One of Obama's many campaign promises was to improve whistle blower protection laws, in fact he has prosecuted more of them than any predecessor. Snowden won't be back without written assurances.
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Gonzo Rodeo View Post
    Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg broke the law when he attempted to assassinate Hitler.

    I suppose his actions are reprehensible because he had no respect for the rule of law. I guess he deserved to die by firing squad, according to your argument. Justice was served.

    Also, what the NSA is doing is not legal. That is why some people don't have a problem with what Snowden did. The very mechanism that denied him from utilizing proper channels (the fact that there were none not withstanding in this case) is part of the overall legal question to begin with. The secrecy and gag orders are not subject to scrutiny by the very nature of secrecy. The only way wrongdoing ever gets exposed for these things is a technically illegal leak.
    There's a mountain of condemning evidence that demonstrates what the NSA was doing, with regards to domestic spying, was illegal. Why do people fail to understand that Snowden's disclosures had the direct result of producing bi-partisan legislation to reform it. Many believe it hasn't gone far enough, but that's another thread I suppose. And Clapper was busted lying to congress!
    Killing one person is murder, killing 100,000 is foreign policy

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