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Thread: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Montecresto View Post
    It's a "RUBBER STAMP" bud, this can't possibly be what you consider oversight. I'll stand for liberty and in the process I may retain my security too! You go ahead and sacrifice one for the other and wind up with nothing.
    What controls would you require to enable the new technologies to be used? They are obviously different from the old ones and require different rules. So, what do you require?


    PS: What might be interesting as an aside here is, that the German agency tapped Hillary, when she was Secretary of State.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    What controls would you require to enable the new technologies to be used? They are obviously different from the old ones and require different rules. So, what do you require?


    PS: What might be interesting as an aside here is, that the German agency tapped Hillary, when she was Secretary of State.
    My chief complaint is domestic spying, and my fourth amendment protections. Diplomats can expect in the course of discharging their duties they might spy on one another. I don't run in such circles, and I disagree with anybody that denies that I would have an expectation of privacy. Unless of course there is probable cause that I have forfeited it.
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by j-mac View Post
    That is simply not how it works...Our justice system is not predicated on a tit for tat doling out of sentencing...Snowden, and his crime stands alone, and should be tried as such...I am sure it would not be a very good defense to plead that someone else did something bad too....
    That's true to a point, but you can't have a "Justice" system that only punishes people who reveal wrongdoing, and not the people who were revealed to have done the wrong. And that's been recent history. Almost no one in government revealed to have broken laws has been prosecuted, but whistleblowers have been HARSHLY prosecuted. We can't have confidence in a system like that, and we don't. It looks rigged because it is rigged, and we know that because the risk only runs one way - government officials are immune from prosecution, but not those who leak information about those wrongdoings.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    "Those that would give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither."
    If that was the quote, would it mean anything? (It's not, by the way)

    Why the hell should anyone trust a FISA court? No accountability. No oversight. Everything is done secretly. Thanks but no thanks. You might trust such a system. I don't. Never will.
    No one really cares if you trust it or not. Their job was to do exactly what you're clamoring for someone to do, and they did it. Sorry.

    This whole thread is just a bunch of people wishing that something was illegal when it plainly wasn't. Keep on wishing guys! Be sure to look for a falling star tonight!
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by joG View Post
    What controls would you require to enable the new technologies to be used? They are obviously different from the old ones and require different rules. So, what do you require?


    PS: What might be interesting as an aside here is, that the German agency tapped Hillary, when she was Secretary of State.
    Pretty much all technology falls under the Bill of Rights. Just because you get GPS, doesn't mean you can arbitrarily attach GPS to anyone (even in public) without cause and warrant. There must be CLEAR and CONSISTENT oversight from the SCOTUS (FISA must be lesser to the SCOTUS, no federal court can exist that does not belong directly to the SCOTUS). Content should be screened by civil liberties groups (which could be established) to assess whether or not the information warrants secrecy. Anything that doesn't becomes public record.
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    If that was the quote, would it mean anything? (It's not, by the way)
    Its close enough that you got the reference...even if it wasn't exact wording. And yes, it means ALOT to anyone that respects and wants Rights and Freedoms. Though I'm pretty sure that it doesn't mean squat to those that would suppress them.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    No one really cares if you trust it or not. Their job was to do exactly what you're clamoring for someone to do, and they did it. Sorry.

    This whole thread is just a bunch of people wishing that something was illegal when it plainly wasn't. Keep on wishing guys! Be sure to look for a falling star tonight!
    Except that it was illegal. FISA or not. Just because you have a "federal judge" in the pockets of a few select politicians and in the pockets of Hitler wannabe's does not mean that what was done was not illegal. I would dare the NSA to try and issue such a warrant in an Open court. How much would you bet that it would be shot down quicker than stink can get on crap?
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    No one really cares if you trust it or not. Their job was to do exactly what you're clamoring for someone to do, and they did it. Sorry.
    And we care the same amount that YOU trust them - not at all. Fact is Snowden revealed these secret orders and we're having a national debate about them, and whether we go back to secret orders by secret courts being able to decide how much of our information to hand over to NSA will happen as it should - with the options on the table and elected officials, and not NSA hacks or secret courts, making those decisions. And for the public to be informed about those broad decisions.

    This whole thread is just a bunch of people wishing that something was illegal when it plainly wasn't. Keep on wishing guys! Be sure to look for a falling star tonight!
    No, this whole thread is people expressing opinions about the trade off between security and privacy. You seem to think the only rational choice is for us to give up all expectations of privacy so the NSA can do it's job easier. It's not the only rational choice - there is a trade off to no privacy, and some of us would choose more privacy even IF it makes NSA's job a bit harder. I don't expect when I send an email that it's public record, and I don't expect when I make a phone call that the details of it should get immediately routed into an NSA database. You disagree. FANTASTIC. Democracy works by having these debates in public, not decided in the dark.

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kal'Stang View Post
    Its close enough that you got the reference...even if it wasn't exact wording.
    Except the actual quote is "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Those highlighted words are there for a reason- because they're important. Everyone trades some liberty for safety- that's called a society- so what you said didn't even make any sense.

    And yes, it means ALOT to anyone that respects and wants Rights and Freedoms. Though I'm pretty sure that it doesn't mean squat to those that would suppress them.
    Besides butchering the quote into something nonsensical, it's still just a quote. It wasn't a counterpoint to what I said.

    Except that it was illegal. FISA or not.
    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, no, I'm pretty sure Kal'Stang from www.debatepolitics.com isn't the decision-maker on what's legal and what's not. I think that's actually the courts? In this case the court that actually deals with these things...called the FISA court, actually! How about that! They were given the responsibility of deciding what was legal and what was not and they made those determinations. You just don't like it. That's fine, but you don't get to tell anyone what's legal and what's not. You know that, right? You're not a sheriff out in a Wild West mining town or something, deciding what's legal and what's not based upon your personal preferences...you know that, right?

    Just because you have a "federal judge" in the pockets of a few select politicians and in the pockets of Hitler wannabe's does not mean that what was done was not illegal. I would dare the NSA to try and issue such a warrant in an Open court. How much would you bet that it would be shot down quicker than stink can get on crap?
    Okay thank you for your crazy hyperbole. Sorry that what you wish was illegal was not. I again encourage you to write a letter or call in to a talk show.

    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by JasperL View Post
    And we care the same amount that YOU trust them - not at all. Fact is Snowden revealed these secret orders and we're having a national debate about them, and whether we go back to secret orders by secret courts being able to decide how much of our information to hand over to NSA will happen as it should - with the options on the table and elected officials, and not NSA hacks or secret courts, making those decisions. And for the public to be informed about those broad decisions.



    No, this whole thread is people expressing opinions about the trade off between security and privacy. You seem to think the only rational choice is for us to give up all expectations of privacy so the NSA can do it's job easier. It's not the only rational choice - there is a trade off to no privacy, and some of us would choose more privacy even IF it makes NSA's job a bit harder. I don't expect when I send an email that it's public record, and I don't expect when I make a phone call that the details of it should get immediately routed into an NSA database. You disagree. FANTASTIC. Democracy works by having these debates in public, not decided in the dark.
    You never answered me when I asked if you knew that intelligence operations needed secrecy to be effective. Did you know that or...?
    The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected.
    -GK Chesterton

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    re: Snowden embraces American flag in WIRED photo shoot[W:511]

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Except the actual quote is "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Those highlighted words are there for a reason- because they're important. Everyone trades some liberty for safety- that's called a society- so what you said didn't even make any sense.
    Are you trying to say that privacy is not essential? As for "a little temporary"....that's exactly what the NSA is. They cannot guarantee 100% safety.

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    Besides butchering the quote into something nonsensical, it's still just a quote. It wasn't a counterpoint to what I said.
    Like I said before, "I'm pretty sure that it doesn't mean squat to those that would suppress them."

    Quote Originally Posted by OldWorldOrder View Post
    hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, no, I'm pretty sure Kal'Stang from www.debatepolitics.com isn't the decision-maker on what's legal and what's not. I think that's actually the courts? In this case the court that actually deals with these things...called the FISA court, actually! How about that! They were given the responsibility of deciding what was legal and what was not and they made those determinations. You just don't like it. That's fine, but you don't get to tell anyone what's legal and what's not. You know that, right? You're not a sheriff out in a Wild West mining town or something, deciding what's legal and what's not based upon your personal preferences...you know that, right?
    You never answered my question. How would any other court, particularly SCOTUS, rule on those warrants? I would bet you that they wouldn't have OK'd it.

    And FYI, yes, actually I can. Ever hear of Jury Nullification? I can make anyone that actually did commit a crime a free man with it. IE: Making what they did legal for them.
    I have an answer for everything...you may not like the answer or it may not satisfy your curiosity..but it will still be an answer. ~ Kal'Stang

    My mind and my heart are saying I'm in my twenties. My body is pointing at my mind and heart and laughing its ass off. ~ Kal'Stang

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